The Oral-Systemic Connection Every Dentist Needs to Understand

0:00So welcome to the Foundation Dental podcast. I am your host, doctor Jim Arnold, and I'm really excited about today's guest. We were introduced earlier this year by a mutual friend and he has been quietly redefining what modern dentistry can be. Doctor. Tom Larkin has spent decades bridging dentistry and medicine, leading the shift towards prevention, early detection and whole body health. He's the founder of Proactive Oral Wellness and creator of the Larkin Protocol, a system transforming how dentists and hygienists understand the oral systemic connection. And here's what I love most. He lives right next door to the ruler of Dubai, Sheikh Mohammed in Lexington, Kentucky. So, you know, that's Tom in a nutshell. He's smart, grounded, and connected to excellence in every form. So in this episode, we're gonna talk about dentistry three point o, biofilm science, and how prevention is reshaping both health and leadership in dentistry.

0:57So let's get started. Tom, thanks for being here, man. I really appreciate it. Thank you. I'm really looking forward to this, Jim. Yeah. No. Absolutely. You know, you spent decades promoting oral systemic health and, you know, biological dentistry. So what was the moment? What was the moment that you knew that dentistry had to shift from reactive, you know, treatment of disease to proactive health optimization? What what made the change for you? So my change happened at nine years. Okay? And I think everybody probably hits that point at about ten years of restorative care where you're just like, is this all there is? There's just more holes to fill and more at the time to refer out. And it was just a moment of reflection. I was just kinda tired of it.

1:44And I read an article, about somebody somebody who who was was extremely extremely controversial controversial at the time that was curing gum disease and helping people with decay. And I'm that guy that I will search out an outlier. I you know, I'm I'm naturally kind of that person. I'm not a skeptic. That too, Tom. I'm the same way. I love it. And so, there's no Internet. So this is '89, and I find myself in Washington DC. And this is infamous doctor Paul Kies who was at NIH for thirty years. He did all of the all of the groundwork in prevention, all of the initial work with dental caries. That was all his stuff. Mhmm. And he invented fluoride trays. And so he did everything. His initial work was on caries, and you'll see tons and tons of of groundbreaking work on dental caries, theories of transmission and whatever.

2:33And then he switched over to gum disease, and he wasn't controversial until he switched over to gum disease, and he started stepping on the periodontal's, you know, toes. And the whole thing was that gum disease can be cured. And at the time, disease was you know, four millimeter pockets were surgically corrected with a gingivectomy. So he he became kinda red hot. And I went and got trained, and, basically, the training was we take a sample of the biofilm, put it under a microscope, and and you're at risk. And we are using, antimicrobials. And at at that point, there weren't antimicrobials, so we used diluted bleach. And there was a delivery system in for antimicrobials through the handpiece. So we would take, the little fertilizer containers that you buy at Lowe's and pump them up, and we would put diluted solution and hook it up to the Cavitron.

3:21And that was really, and then Cavitrons only came with the fat tips. And one of the guys in the group custom made the the slim tips. I mean, this really this was really, groundbreaking stuff, but it was grassroots. Okay? And it worked. It worked. Know, Tom, I is this the same thing I read about? I read about something, like, in 2017 that you were the one who did something with microscopy to make the oral biofilm visible. It were you part of that, or am I No. No. No. I what I did was I kind of revived doctor Kaizen's protocol with a with a new microscope. Okay? Oh, okay. I needed an updated microscope. Because in order to do training, and I do a lot of virtual training, I need a standardized thing.

4:09And I found the guy to do it, and and so, no. I haven't done any discovery. Okay. All credit to doctor Kai's. And I just basically took his work, and and it's evolved over the decades, you know, from I think he started, you know, doing all his work with Carrie's in the sixties, and, and I met him in '89. He lived to be 100. His wife lived to be 101, so much for the oral systemic connection. And then his standard antimicrobial was baking soda and hydrogen peroxide. That was his standard home care. And he got tremendous results with patients. And so and that put me on that path to see you know, I'm seeing patients on Recare that don't have problems that I was it's a different way of practicing.

4:54That would not attract everyone. Some people, you know, wanna see people that need work. But I I was inspired, and I saw what happened to the hygienist. The hygienist began to practice with a lot of confidence because before, it was always they never knew who was gonna get better or who gonna get worse, but now they had confidence. And when patients get confidence, they choose more care. So so, you know, back in the early nineties, you know, veneers began to be a big thing. And when a person goes to the dentist and they don't have something wrong and but they and they have confidence. So they're much more likely to choose veneers than when they go and get the fact that, hey. You've got two cavities now, and you got this, and you got that.

5:36Absolutely. So it was kind of a mushroom effect. And then what really caused my major pivot was 2012 when I went to the one of the first meetings in the American Academy of Oral Systemic Health. That's when I met doctor Bale. That's when I learned that this was connected. So I was doing prevention for prevention's sake. I didn't know about the oral systemic stuff until doctor Bale came along, and then I became a patient. I became an advocate, and then I started to create courses because I knew that dentist this is a very niche deal. Dentists don't know much about it. And then what happened is the world you know, it's kinda like the, I was kinda like the Maytag repairman, but now not before because our health care system is so broken and everyone's out looking for alternatives.

6:22You know? If you look at if you look at the, functional medicine influencers, you know, people are signing up to get fit, to get healthy. I know you're you're on an extensive health journey to get healthy, and people are becoming empowered. Well, dentistry is a part of that whole thing. Okay? The problem is the dentist don't know it. The physicians are all over this. Okay? Yeah. I I went to a meeting last December. It's called a four m. It's the functional medicine group. 7,000 physicians in Vegas. And I saw I saw firsthand, there was only a handful of dentists, and I and I knew them. But I was like, wow. We don't we are not clued into this. And to be to be truthful, those functional medicine doctors cannot fully practice without a dentist.

7:13That's what I knew, and that's where I've kind of Ah. Where I know doctor Bail. He needs salivary testing. He needs a CT scan. He needs a sleep study. Otherwise, he cannot complete your profile when you come in as a new patient. Mhmm. I I love that. You know, this is just a long time coming. I mean, obviously, you've been you've been doing this for decades, but it's incredible, Tom. I mean, even when I was probably ten years out of dental school, I graduated in '96. I'd say 02/2005, 2010, you know, there were a lot more people starting to talk about it. And the crazy thing, Tom, I had physicians as patients who kind of poo pooed the whole thing. Like they said, oh, what's what's in your mouth has nothing to do with the rest of the body.

7:58I said, no. Actually, there there are a lot of studies that show how closely connected everything is. And I was dumbfounded by these these physicians who just didn't really believe in that. Yeah. Yeah. And the most incredible thing and and like I told you, I doctor Bale was here, last Thursday, and he his his record is still intact. You know, he's practiced over twenty years. He's never had one patient have a heart attack or stroke. There's a host of people that he's trained that have the exact same record. We're talking about tens of thousands of patients, and he also has a 100% money back guarantee. That that's just hard to imagine because heart disease is our number one killer. And the method a methodology that has a 100% track record, and no one knows about it.

8:46No one knew. Unbelievable. Yeah. You know, Tom, I I tell you what, you've certainly been an evangelist for this for a long time. And I was so sad that I couldn't make it back in April because I was actually in Dubai, as I recall. But at any rate, it's really exciting. And, you know, for me, I'm somewhat of a neophyte in this area just because know, I sold my practices about ten years ago and stopped practicing about five years ago. But now being kind of more in the education space and bringing rock star educators together, you know, niche experts who like you, who know their stuff inside and out. So I'm so excited to have you kind of on the team and as somebody who's gonna contribute a lot to the mastermind that we're building.

9:28Absolutely. No. Really exciting. It's a privilege. It's a privilege. You know, I wanted to ask you. You know, you talk about dentistry three point o in the Larkin protocol. Yes. So so tell me about the Larkin protocol and how it changes, you know, kind of treatment regimens and how it changes kind of the traditional dentist business model. So so that kind of what that did is it it was an evolution. So, my wheelhouse was training with a microscope, and I decided about five years ago to have a live event. But I wanted to do a different kind of a live event. I wanted to do one day kind of didactic, and then the second day clinical hands on because that's that's the way I want to purchase technology.

10:07And my first event was April 2020 got canceled because of COVID. Talk about bad timing. Bad timing. The so the technologies that I had identified were, the microscope, the diode laser in hygiene, and also got at the time, Guided Biofilm Therapy, which is a a Swiss company. And so the next meeting that we had, that that became a part of the meeting. And then just by meeting people and networking, I learned about ozone water. I learned a lot about that during COVID. Now that's not ozone. That's not ozone gas. Ozone gas requires training. The water that's ozonated, that's a very it's just a, you know, it's just a holistic antimicrobial. It's not chemical, but it kills everything. Right? So I learned about ozone water, and and so then that became part of what I called the the protocol.

11:00The protocol is the early diagnosis and treatment of gum disease, which we've you know? And so I what I do is I've I've kind of painted a a broad brush of not only the diagnosis, but what are some of the cutting edge technologies like lasers and irrigation with ozone water and things like that and prebiotics, probiotics, just kinda cutting edge things. And so people have kind of every meeting that I've had has been different. Mhmm. In in April, had that, Dennis from, Victoria Sampson came from London to, talk about a new salivary test. Salivary testing is a kind of an exploding area that's a little bit confusing, and so I've tried to bring clarity to that. Mhmm. Everything starts with a microscope because it's a two minute test.

11:47We don't charge. It's free. It's just an awareness test. Right? Here's what your microbiome looks like, and it's a it's tried and true. I mean, everything that doctor Kays, theorized is is in reality. It's it's come to fruition. That's so cool. And it's so cool that you had such amazing mentors. You know? I mean, like, guys who were pioneers in this space. 100%. I mean, not just there, but in ortho, Bob Garrity, and and TMJ, Barney Jenkelson, who started Oh, he wrote one of my textbooks. I'm pretty sure. Yeah. No. I mean, these are these are, like, some of the greatest guys to me in history. I we don't I don't if dentistry does a good enough job to have, like, a hall of fame or, you know, where we recognize.

12:35You know? But that's what I was really happy to see you getting Steve Rasner involved. You know? Steve's just a just a what a wealth of just clinical expertise. Right? In yeah. Absolutely. Clinical and communication and business. No. It's everything. Yeah. Truly. Everything. So There aren't too many guys or women who are just kinda, like, all around kinda have the whole whole package as he does. Right. No. I've admired him from a distant I haven't I've never met him personally. Okay. Well, you know what's what's funny? I met him in Bermuda about a year and a half ago at a conference, and we hit it off right away and decided that we were gonna do this thing together. And so I got to spend a week with him in Dubai a couple of months ago.

13:19And, you know, I I liked him already, but, like, actually hanging out with him and teaching with him was, mean, what a privilege. It was it was extraordinary for myself, for our other speakers, and, of course, for our attendees. So yeah. I'm I'm certain of that. But then you have Jeff Busky, who's who's a very talented, very good dentist. Oh my. Yes. Absolutely. Two two rock stars. You know what? One of my favorite things, Tom, while we were there was just, like, being in the pool with them. Like, on a couple of afternoons where I had some downtime, just listening to them banter back and forth about, the different CE that they've done, especially in the surgical space and the different tips. And it was really cool to see two clinicians operating at such a high level with such mutual respect you know, and showing the humility to, you know, learn from one another.

14:10I mean, you know how it is. When you're in a room with with other really smart people, isn't it isn't it just, like, invigorating? No. It's to me, it's a it's a privilege. I mean, I'm I and once again, it comes down to that principle of, you know, hang hanging out with people that are smarter than you, not not being intimidated by that scenario. Not everybody will do that. Right? Oh, man. Some people are uncomfortable with that, and you and I find that invigorating. I wanna be around people. You know, I don't understand to know everything, boy, I sure know a lot of smart people. That you know what? That's that's exactly right. It's about being in the right room. You know? Yeah. Who we spend our time with?

14:45What it what's that thing? The five people we spend the most time with determine kind of Yep. Who we're going to be and Everything. So, hey, man. I wanna be a 10, so I'm hanging out with tens. 100%. 100%. So, yeah, you gotta tell me about your neighbor, Sheikh Mohammed, which you told me about that the first time we we were chatting. When I told you I was going to Dubai, you said, oh my gosh. I live next to Sheikh Mohammed. Said, what? And then a few months later, didn't one of his horses win the Kentucky Derby? That was a week after my conference. And and you know? So we had taken the tour. I was given a tour after the conference. People wanna stay over Sunday morning, and I can get a I can get a private tour, which is nice.

15:24And they were just talking about this horse next Saturday. And, of course, you know, he has spent billions of dollars trying to win the derby. He's never Yeah. Before. And so everybody remembered the horse. I didn't thing was sovereignty, and, really, it's probably the best horse he's ever had. Oh my gosh. Horse wins the derby. Yeah. I had a couple people text me and said, I completely paid for my trip. I bet on the Kentucky Derby and Oh my gosh. From the horse tour that's that you did. So yeah. So is that a guarantee for next year? You guys will see the horse that's gonna win a few months later. Just throw throw all your money on that one. Very unlikely. Okay? Physically unlikely, but but once again, just to be around animals like that is Yeah.

16:05Inspiring. Absolutely. And he's just an incredible guy too. The things that he's done in in Dubai. Know that, and I was explaining to to doctor Bale when was here Thursday. I said, you know Yeah. You can look at this horse farm. He has six divisions of this. This horse farm here is is it's massive. I mean, it's it's unbelievable. I said he has six of these around the globe since I've lived in Lexington, and he's only been here twice. You know, he has management teams managing this stuff. And then you look and see what he's done in Dubai. Yeah. This guy is a builder. I mean, you know, he he just builds stuff at the highest, highest level. Yeah. Takes awesome care of his employees, and the people who work on this farm are Yeah.

16:44Cared for like nobody's business. They they love him. They work their ass off for him. That's that's really cool. Hey. You know what? That's a sign of a of a good leader. I mean, obviously, we all wanna be good leaders within our sphere of influence and whatnot. And when you look at a guy like that, he's he's a world leader. He's a guy who has innovated and had a vision that turned the desert into one of the most extraordinary cities on the planet. Yeah. Yeah. He has. Yeah. And once again, I'm I'm going with you one some point in the time. Was gonna say, you know, we're we're going back we're going back in the spring and then again in the fall. So, yeah, we we'll have to look at calendars and see see what works out.

17:23And the thing that I wanna do is so I wanna talk to my people here and say, hey, neighbor. I'm going to Dubai. Can we get a VIP tour of whatever he's doing over there? Oh, man. Alright. You're in. You're in. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Let's go. So, hey, get getting back to the science stuff, which, you know, I think sometimes dentists get bored with science. You know? They like to cut teeth and, you know, talk about business and all that sort of thing. But I I think that one of the avenues to educating, like, dentists and getting more dentists onboard with this whole movement that's so damn important is, you know, talking about the the business model and talking about how you can monetize this because we're so driven towards productivity and and profit and everything that I think that dentists are hesitant to jump into something they don't know anything about.

18:13They're hesitant to jump into something that their perception is, I'm not gonna make as much money because I'm gonna be doing all this diagnostic stuff. So so tell tell us about that a little bit. Like, how can dentists do the right thing, you know, take care of patients in the best way possible while also being thriving financially? Well, this will never compete with, Allinx, okay, ever. Sure. Of course. It's for everyone. Yeah. Really, truthfully is it's it's for a person that's very purpose driven. You know, people generally just reach out to me, and they became a dentist for a particular reason. They they had a role model. You know, people get into health care for different reasons. You can get into health care or dentistry to make lot of money.

18:59You can go the surgical path and make a lot of money. There's nothing wrong. I'm not gonna judge that. But people and and on on my podcast, I'll always ask, tell me who was the person in your life who made an influence of you. Generally, it's in your teens or maybe sometimes it's in college. Who is it? Was it a teacher? Was it, you know, was it your neighbor? Was it your dentist? Who was it? And there's always one person that you look up to and you say, I wanna be like them. You know, they're kind of kind and loving, and they kind of there's just there's an aura around them. Right? Mhmm. So so it's not for everybody. You know? And I I did a podcast last week with someone who I trained last well, he was at the meeting last year, and then he completely transformed his office.

19:43And and he was the one that told me that. He goes he goes, you know that this isn't for everybody. I go, no. But it it certainly was for him. You know? Meaning, came away from the meeting and goes, this is the way that I wanna practice. You know? And so it's it's better. And, you know, know, Tom, I I I look at this and think that the two can coexist. Right. It's incumbent upon us to do everything we can to help our patients be healthier. Correct. And the mouth is connected to the rest of the body, and we do need to integrate dentistry with medicine a lot more. So it's incumbent upon us to learn what we can to help our patients be healthier.

20:22And guess what? You and I were talking before the show started just about that and how when you have patients who you help, like, get really healthy, they're a lot more likely to trust you. They're a lot more likely to move forward with whatever treatment it is that they that they want or need. And so if you look at it that way, you turn it around on its head a little bit. Like, by doing the right thing, we're enhancing our relationship. We're doing a better job, and I think we get better compliance from patients. 100%. I mean, statistically, you know, the the the most important KPI in your practice is hygiene retention. Right? Mhmm. And I I always cite a study. It was done by one of the guys in dental intel did a did a, pretty extensive study about how changing that KPI changes your overall gross income.

21:10Yeah. Changing your KPI from, 60 to 90% doubles your gross income. K? You're you're like, it's incredible. Why is that? Well, here's why. Okay? Look at the value of a new patient versus an existing patient. And and once again, I've got smart people that run the numbers. The the value, the money that an existing patient spends on Recare is is almost double what a new patient spends. Okay? Because they trust you and they relationship. So the better so the better job that you do so here's the story. I make it very simple. Missus Smith is an insulin dependent diabetic. All of a sudden, your practice pivots and your hygienist and you begin to have a conversation of, you know, missus Smith, we have now learned that the health of your mouth really is important in your diabetes management.

22:02And now we're going to do salivary testing because here's what we know. If we can keep your mouth healthier, you are going to be more stable and you lose less insulin. There's a definite connection. It's it's called bidirectional. Now missus Smith is going, oh, I really didn't know that. What happens to her hygiene retention? She'll never miss that appointment. Now there's a medical reason for her coming for her recare because he knows that it's helping with her diabetes. See, these are the conversations that the dentist is missing. Now you can translate that to heart disease. You can translate that to dementia. If a patient has any history of dementia in their family, you say, there is a connection, and and we're gonna screen you. And if I see spirochetes and there's all kinds of association with spirochetes and dementia Yeah.

22:49You know, you're coming in regularly. Now what happens is on that beautiful spring day, when someone has an appointment to get their teeth cleaned and they wanna go play golf, and they cancel most of the time because they don't value their teeth. Now they keep it. Now your retention goes. Your KPI goes from 60 to 90. Okay? So and I and I have a practice here that, it's one of the startups that I've done. I've done six startups in the Lexington area, and it's a holistic practice. And then and holistic is a different it's a different thing, and and I stay away from some part of it, but learn from it. Okay? So this is a practice that's five or six years old. I think it's been six years.

23:31Doesn't accept new patients. It's full. And and who has the discipline to say enough is enough? I need an associate. I need to expand. But the most amazing thing that she did and then she has shared with me is that patients apply to be on the waiting list. And I have No kidding. Hundreds of these applications, Jim. And I let me explain to you. The dentist do not understand how much how savvy patients are. Yeah. And and when they say, I need someone that knows that the mouth these are and and and I have those in a in a presentation. I I I just she shares them with me, and I just run them off. The patients are so much more savvy than dentists in general know today.

24:16That's there is a connection, and they're seeking it. Now here's the problem. The word holistic is radioactive, and I and I've known Mac because I've been around a long time. And I and and I when I did her startup, I said, Rachel, are you? I just I'm gonna forewarn you. Are you okay with this? I said, it's gonna be fine with your marketing to clients. Patients will seek you out. But I said, are you ready to be ridiculed by by, you know, your colleagues? He said, yeah. I'm good with that. I said, well, as long as you don't care and she's really overcome it, and she has been invited to speak at the university. She's she's a very she's done a good job with it, but it's still a radioactive term to Dennis.

24:55So Yeah. I've been very careful when it's staying in the lane of cardiovascular prevention, which is essentially gum disease. Okay? Yeah. And and this really became a topic about a month ago. And what I did was I went to ChatGBT, and I put down all of the components of holistic practice, safe amalgam removal, blah blah blah blah blah. And I said, tell me the impact on your overall health. Okay? So the first thing I was interested in was fluoride because I hate I hate that conversation, you know, because it's really polarizing. Fluoride has 5% impact on overall health, okay, according to AI. And I go, why why are we even talking about it? Gum disease had a seventy percent. Okay. Let's stick to the things that matter the most.

25:40Okay? Absolutely. I don't wanna fight about fluoride. I don't wanna fight about root canals. Yeah. A well done root canal is fine in my book. Okay? I agree. And and are people sensitive to mercury amalgam? And and should you you know, I don't think you should ever recommend them to be removed. Mhmm. But if they are removed, if they're safely removed, there's a protocol where they will the patient and the dentist wear protective gear. Mhmm. And I'm totally cool with that. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Potentially what holistic practice is. But I'm really careful with that with that word because it turns dentists off. Okay? And it and it turned them off decades ago when when doc when I was trying to help doctor Kays, and it you know, his work never really caught on because it was it got caught in a in a very confusing morass.

26:33Yeah. So Well, you know, it's what's interesting, Tom, is I think that a lot of times when when somebody is speaking at this level, you know, and everything is so clear, and you're talking to dentists who are, you know, trying to learn how to, you know, get patients to say yes to cutting a crown prep, you know, things like that. You're just on such different levels. It just kinda goes in one ear and out the other. And, you know, we come out of dental school without communication skills, you know, without leadership skills, without business skills, and and a lot of debt. And so so many doctors are just so overwhelmed with all of that stuff, you know, that, like, learning a new thing is just almost beyond, like, what they feel like they're they can do.

27:17Perfect. You know you know what I'm thinking about in this conversation, you know, beyond you know, it's just the obvious fact that you you'll be a better dentist, and I think you'll be more financially successful doing things the right way. But Correct. With the with the populace, you know, more and more people out there being more and more informed, that's what's gonna drive demand. You know? When guys like you are out there, you know, beating the drums for this and patients start asking for it, you know, there's gonna it's gonna take a while, but that shift is gonna happen. Right. And that's kind of the definition of of, dentistry three point o. I saw, Koizen Coachman. They've about six months ago, he did a podcast.

28:00He was and it's a little bit of a shift for them because they were very restorative and stuff, and and and he was he was saying that that that very much was the future. So that's kind of validation. I mean, Cohesus had some pretty good prevention stuff there. Mhmm. But Mhmm. They they could see the future. They can see what's evolving. And it will be and it will be patient driven. It's not going to be you know? I mean, I don't need to educate patients. You know, my my thing is you don't need to do public service announcements for We need to we need to educate dentists on what's available and and how they can pivot how they can make pivots. So what I what I do in a consult I had a really great consult this morning with the hygienist on the con they asked great questions.

28:43Mhmm. And that, you know, I I I always say, tell me tell me exactly what you want, and I and we'll do this kind of sequentially. We'll start we'll start well, go as far as you want. Do you just wanna do do you want better case acceptance for perio? Great. Nothing better than the microscope. The hand down. And if that's all you want, that's great. Now if you wanna go a little further and you wanna start doing guided biofilm therapy and laser and whatever, and do you want a relationship with a physician, a referring relationship? I can show you exactly how to do that, how what what needs to be exchanged back and forth, what tests you need to supply the the physician and vice versa.

29:23So it's it's all there. It'll happen, and it'll it's it's the momentum is kinda building. I see it. Yeah. Well, that's that's cool. I you know, one question I've been dying to ask too is the first time a patient sees their oral micro microbiome microbiome moving under the microscope, how do they react? Oh, they freak out. They they generally freak out. And sometimes, you know, not in a not in a real good way. I mean Yeah. Generally speaking, you know, it's like, oh my gosh. You know? What are those worms doing in my mouth? You know? Yeah. Oh god. And and they'll say and this is unbelievable, Jim. They'll say, what are we going to do about it, and when are you gonna get started?

30:00Okay? When have you ever had a patient in your life ask you for treatment? Okay? You know what? You know what that is? That's called reverse pole marketing. I remember we used to have we used to have big charts on the wall with well, we show them a picture of their, you know, their arch that shows all these big amalgams and all the cracks and all the stuff. And and we didn't even have to say anything. Just put it on the screen. They're like, what the hell is that? And what are we gonna do about it? Same thing. Correct. Yeah. Exact same thing. So so I think I think people, dentists, especially younger dentists, don't understand this, what you just said and what I just said.

30:38They don't understand that communication skills with a patient, the patient will literally ask for treatment. The the problem is their skills are so low, and they're they're kind of going in one they're just spewing out stuff to the patient and not reading. You know, they just don't have that ability to to know. Well Yeah. You know, it's there's so many doctors out there who, you know, have great hands, great clinical skills. They go to all the courses, but they go back to their office and they don't have that that thing, you know, that that communication unlock that that makes them relatable and makes patients just say, oh my gosh. Yes. I would never go anywhere else. And it and it kinda breaks my heart when I see this.

31:20You know, guys who are spending, you know, tens of thousands of dollars on their education every year, and then they go back and they're not able to do this exquisite dentistry that they're trained to do. Well, this is very similar, I think. You know, the it takes a higher level of communication skills to, you know, educate somebody about that. Although, if we use these those visual cues, if you have that on that microscopic movement of the the mouth worms, people are gonna freak out and beg beg for the treatment. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's for the first time ever that they realize that the film on their teeth is a lot. Okay? We we just scrape it off their teeth and put it under the microscope, and, you know, it's alive.

32:02It's horrible. You know? And and just that right there is a is a big moment for the patient because they they don't even when they come in for a cleaning, they don't they just know that it feels good when they're done. They they they feel smooth. Yeah. No. No. No. No. No. You know, we we paint the picture of of, you know, this ongoing battle between friendly bacteria and pathogens, and this just goes back and forth. And So I'm not gonna lie, Tom. Like, just this this conversation alone is making me wanna go brush my teeth again right now. Like, I I feel like I need to floss, scrape my tongue, brush, rinse. I mean, like, really? So that's cool. You know, now with with dentists, I mean, obviously, you teach that biological assessment has to come before any restorative care, and biological assessment at a much higher level than what we've been trained to do in the past.

32:53You know, are you are you seeing a shift, like, in terms of dentists' attitudes towards that? I mean, are you getting more and more dentists coming through your programs who just, like, get it and understand the repercussions if they don't do it in that order? The the big difference that I see, Jim, and I'm being just brutally honest, is that, there are just such financial constraints today. So when some when someone comes in and needs an implant, and let's say you did a let's say you just did a quick sample, not even a salivary test, because I really do think salivary testing will become the standard of care for implants, and that's a whole another podcast. Yeah. Another conversation. And let's say that the patient has just extreme dysbiosis, but that they're sitting there ready to spend a lot of money with you right today.

33:40You know, they're they come in ready to go. Yeah. It's that's a pretty tough that's a pretty tough deal for a lot I mean, it's a it's it's a it's a challenge. On on one extreme you know? And it's generally the periodontist who who do this who do this to the to the to the limit. Meaning, a periodontist will take six months or a year to have your oral environment correct before they'll place an implant. I mean, I know periodontists that have that levels of protocol. And I'm talking about biologically. You know? Yeah. Salivary tests are looking at, you know, the DNA, and they're they're really scrutinizing. The microscope is one level. When you take a salary test, that's another level because you're looking at the exact what what are the exact levels.

34:26And and there are people that practice at that level. I don't see that as being practical for a general practitioner when somebody comes in and they got $10 in their pocket ready to spend. You know? It's unfortunate. There are a lot of pressures today, and the the the the pressures in the marketplace today are real are real. You know, what's happened since COVID is real. I mean, overhead fixed to or variable overhead both have gone up 25%. Reimbursement has been flat. That's putting pressure on practices in a in a pretty significant in a pretty significant way. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And and you hear it all the time. And then, you know, with the cost of staffing going through the roof since since the pandemic, it's it makes it really, really difficult from a business standpoint.

35:12You know? But but the skills to get out of network. Okay? Yes. The problem is the skills to get out of network are these are the skills to do it. You know, you can't just wake up one day and say, I'm going out of network and do and do what you've always been doing because people aren't gonna see the value. They have to see the value. They have that their level of care is is higher than than what they're probably could get anywhere. Yeah. Well, this makes sense. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. You're going to have to pivot. So this comes hand in glove. I mean, I'm not one of those I'm not one of those people that be I see people kinda beating the drum of out of network.

35:49They're people that just don't have the they don't have the personality skills. You know, mean, yeah, yeah, there's the bojo too. Right? Yeah. No no doubt about it. Let's be honest about this. And and one of the things that I'm insisting on that I've that I've been kinda critical on and and this is this is the five years that have led up to, from five years before COVID with the advent of podcast, with the advent of Facebook groups. Yeah. It has been kind of a blanket encouragement of entrepreneurship. And I and at first, I thought it was cool. I'm doing I'm doing this stuff. Right? And then I started to back away from it because I this is not for everybody, entrepreneurship. So I think a lot of the distress that you see today, you see a lot of talk about burnout and and stress and blah blah blah blah blah.

36:36Yeah. Some of it is because people became I call them entrepreneurs. They had zero interest rates, okay, in 15 to 20. Yeah. Pressured to own a practice because everyone was owning a practice. And I'm gonna tell you something, and you know this. It's a combination of skills to be a practice owner. Okay? And if you're deficient if you're deficient in in in that dentistry is a very unique. It's a very unique It's such a complex ecosystem. It has so many systems within it and so many skill sets that you really have to master in order to kinda do things at a high level on a consistent basis. And by the way, you can't do it all your own. You've got to be you have to have a culture that attracts the right team members, and then you've gotta be the kind of leader that that not only gets those people in, but nurtures them, puts them into positions to succeed, gives them all the tools to succeed.

37:35Because no matter how good you and I are, we can't do it alone. Correct. Correct. So so not everybody has that. Not everybody has it. So, you know, when I was teaching at the university and I and I was teaching practice management, and my, you know, my assessment would be so this is, you know, 02/1213. Maybe maybe 5% of new graduates had it, you know, that they can go look at either buying a practice from a retiring dentist or doing a start up. Okay? Yeah. Well, that metric completely changed with social media, and and it was like you know? And I and I and I'm critical of the people that are selling practices. They're completely indiscriminate. They'll sell practices to anybody, or they'll do start ups for anybody.

38:23And I only did start ups for people that I knew personally, and they had to they were they had it. Right? But I think we have so some of these people now that are very vocal, I hate dentistry, and, you know, I see I see threads and stuff. Well, there were people that probably shouldn't have owned they shouldn't have become practice owners to begin. Right? And so they're they're kind of and then and then what concerns me the most is because you and I know what a beautiful profession this is. But when you go on social media and you start telling what a shitty job this is and how horrible it is, you're kinda polluting the water for that undergraduate who might be thinking about this.

39:04Yeah. So what's the word influence? You know, that's the we live in an age of influence. We're constantly bombarded about it. And I and and that distresses me. Okay? Because, that's why I am happy about what you're doing because you're creating role models in a in a whole complete spectrum, of really solid people. And I think I think these are the people that need to be looked at, and let's just kinda back off the Facebook the people that know how to market on Facebook, but, really, they've never done anything. And there there's a few of them out there, and I'm and I'm I'm not gonna name names. Well, you know, what's what's interesting I mean, we could go down about a 100 rabbit holes on this whole subject, of course.

39:48We could talk about it for hours. But, you know, one of the interesting things, like, literally just this morning, I decided the the mastermind that I'm putting together that's pretty well built out with six main pillars, I've decided to gear it towards a niche that I don't think is is really being covered in terms of masterminds. Gonna take it in the the direction of fee for service dentistry. And it doesn't mean that people come on board have to go all in or anything like that, but at least moving things a little bit more in that direction so that, A, insurance companies aren't making decisions for patients. B, it lowers overhead by 40 percent immediately because you're not giving them that huge commission on everything you do.

40:33And C, I think that patients are just gonna get better care as a general rule. And it doesn't mean that people have to blow up their whole PPO practice and that sort of thing. But I just know from experience, was fee for service my whole career. I was very blessed. I had an amazing team, and everybody communicated well. Mean, we're we worked hard at it. It's not like it all just came naturally. I mean, we had we spent hundreds of thousands of dollars to learn how to communicate and to do the work and all that. So for me, I realized that that's a niche that I know. I know it inside and out. And several on my on my team, on the faculty with us, are are also in that space.

41:11And everything that you're talking about right now, you know, it's like getting outside of network. These are the things that require that level of leadership and communication that most docs don't come out of school with. And so the more we can help them, you know, kind of learn those things and kind of build those skill sets out, I think the more likely they are to do more of it, and everybody wins. Oh, it's it's so important because here's what's happened. Because of the flat reimbursements with the PPOs and people trying to make up for this loss, they're I I call it a speeding up model. You're trying to go faster. You're trying to maybe see one or two more patients or Yeah. Hygiene from an hour to forty five minutes.

41:52Anything that makes dentistry goes faster will lead to burnout. There there is no question about it. We have physical limitations. Dentistry is physically challenging. It you're People don't know. They don't they don't get that. They're like, what? You're just, like, holding a drill. Like But what you're talking about because I I I'm constantly talking about slow down. We're going slower. We're going slower because slower is this sustainable. Yeah. Number of people quitting. I mean, you shouldn't be quitting after ten years. I mean, it's sad when someone leaves. Yeah. It is. Gives it up and quits. Yeah. If someone quits, I think they've had improper coaching. I I think they really have had and they haven't met the right people. Yeah. You know, and sometimes dentists just they don't seek out those mentors.

42:36So they're not in the right place at the right time, or they don't even understand, like, what the possibilities are out there. And you know, that's it's heartbreaking because as you said, it's just a it's a phenomenal it's a phenomenal profession. It's a great thing that allows us to do so many good things for patients. And, you know, I I I think you've heard the statistics. My first day of dental school, you know, thirty three years ago, they said dentists have the highest drug abuse, divorce, and suicide rate of any profession. And, Tom, I about fell off my chair. That was the first day of dental school. I'm like, what the hell are you talking about? My dentist has an amazing life. He's got a nice house, and he's got a nice car, you know, good family.

43:15And, I mean, he only comes in and sees me for three minutes, and then he's probably back in his, you know, office with his feet up on the desk. Like, what are you talking about? And, man, then you get out there and you realize just how physically physically demanding it is, how emotionally demanding it is, how many conversations that we have every day. And so I agree 1000000%. Now I have no problem with efficiencies. Efficiencies don't mean going faster. You know what my motto is? It's slow is smooth and smooth is fast. And so it's about being deliberate. It's by about being intentional. As soon as you touch that tooth with a bur, you know exactly what you're going to do. And you might do in two minutes what other people are doing in a half an hour.

43:59And guess what? Yes. It's more efficient. Guess what? It's also a lot better, but it has nothing to do with going faster. Right. Yeah. So I so I think that's I think that's some of what I'm seeing, and I'm sure you're kind of seeing it, you know, that just kind of a restlessness and people, you know, unhappiness with whatever. Yeah. Anything that that anything that makes us go faster is going to lead to unhappiness. No question. No no doubt about it. There's only so many hours in the day. And if you're trying to see too many patients, it just means that you're you're gonna have to compromise somewhere. You know? If you don't have as much time to communicate, that relationship building isn't there. And so seeing fewer patients is is really the way to be more successful.

44:45And it's simple math. Yeah. So happy that you're that you're working on that. I I I think it's it's gonna be a phenomenal service. And and and so they're, you know, they're gonna be young people out there that are, you know, hopefully hear hear what you're saying. Yeah. And you get their attention. And it's not a Facebook group, and it's not somebody that's done something one time. You know? I I see that, you know, they did a start up one time, and now they wanna be a consultant for a start up. I was like, really? You did you finished yours, and you're gonna help everybody else with theirs. Everybody's an expert, Tom. Didn't you know? Everybody. No. It's it's you know, like I said, I I I I was enamored with with, you know, information being free and this and the other.

45:28But then I then I became disenchanted with the quality of the information Yeah. Yeah. Things that I saw people do. And yeah. Yeah. We've gotta be discerning about where we get our information. And, you know, when you do find mentors, you you've gotta feel really good about their credibility. And, you know, it's like, do your homework. You know? Make sure make sure you're jumping into the right room because, you know, if you're in the wrong room, you you could be another twenty years doing things the wrong way without realizing. But, you know, I I think people have to have street cred. So I'll tell you a story. I don't share it a lot, but I but I wanna share it with you. I did a, I built and sold a dental practice while I was in dental school.

46:12Okay? I've never met anyone now. It's a crazy thing. I started my junior year. When I say my blinds. This is blinding me. Yeah. So when I say bill, I'm talking about framing and drywall. I've been talking about physically built on the weekends. It was in a small town in the suburbs. I had no money. I had a I I cold called the mayor, gave me a line of credit. Okay. I mean so that's that's an entrepreneur. I'm wire I was wired differently in dental school, but but I'm sitting here as a junior saying, well, I wanna practice the day that I graduate, and I need to get started now. And I just went and did this, and it was crazy. Amazing. Okay. Oh my gosh.

46:51So so, you know, I understand I understand that that's different. You know, that's that's in a that's a DNA thing. I was curious. You know, life was to me, was kinda like a playground. Yeah. Why not? You know? Yeah. I'm gonna go fix this space up. You know? It's like but it's it's insane in in hindsight. I mean, I look at the fearful person I am today. As you get older, experience experience makes you more fearful. Yeah. You're more risk averse. Right? But there's there's nothing like being 25. So when I see the 25 year olds today, hey. I've got student loans. I've got this. I go, who gives a shit? You know, you got your whole life ahead of you. I never considered any downside.

47:32What if I didn't pass my boards? I wasn't at the top of my class. I have a literal freaking construction loan, and I was remodeling. What if I that wasn't in my head. And so and so when I see these younger people, you know, just victims of, you know, social media influence, whatever. Yeah. You just need to go back to the purity of being 25 and having your whole life ahead of you. Let's let's just go, you know, let's go throw it down. Yeah. Gosh. I love that. You know? And I'm the same way. You know? I think I was very, very much a risk taker when I was younger. And, you know, you get to a point where you see some things go really well, some things maybe not so well, and you get more risk averse.

48:14But, man, there is no better profession than dentistry. I mean, there there are so few businesses that that have the the opportunity to not only do great things for patients, but there are 50 different ways to run a practice. And guess what? You don't have to do everything. You can do exactly the procedures you want on exactly the patients that you want. That's a beautiful thing. And by the way, from a business standpoint, there are very few businesses out there that are as profitable by percentage, you know, when you do it right. But Right. You know, it doesn't happen automatically. And, unfortunately, I do think that there are people who just assume that once they step into an office as an owner, they're just gonna, like, make gobs and gobs of money, and and it's not it's just not realistic unless you figure out what you're doing.

48:58Right. Right. Yeah. Well, I'm excited about what you're doing because Well, I appreciate it. It it's time. It's time to get some really legit experts together. And The the cool thing too, Tom, it's, like, small groups. You know, we're not, like, a thousand people or 300 people. When you got, like, 10 or 15 people in a room, like, you can really go deep. You can ask real questions and have real conversations. And not that there's anything wrong with, you know, going to a, you know, a a hotel ballroom to do a course. I mean, I've done a million of them as have you, I'm sure. But you don't get that same one on one kind of interaction. You don't build deep relationships. You can't necessarily ask those questions that are specific to your situation or your practice.

49:43And that's what I saw both in Puerto Vallarta this year and in Dubai, where, you know, they had, like, three to five days of complete access, where we're eating every meal together. You know, we're having conversational education. You know, we're doing cool activities in the afternoon where the conversations continue. And and, know, Tom, after two or three days, like, I wasn't even thinking about who's a student, who's faculty, who's a videographer, who's a spouse. We're just like all this tight knit group that by the end of the fifth day, I said, my god. You guys are like family for the rest of my life. You know, this isn't something where we say goodbye and, you know, wish you well. It's like, no. Guess what? I'm gonna be following up with each of you.

50:24I wanna make sure that you're actually doing the stuff that you learned this week. Because if you didn't, I'm gonna feel like we didn't do our job. Yeah. Yeah. And you can't do that with a 100 people. You could do it with, you know, 10. Right. Right. No. I I I love it. I love what you're doing. Graduate. I love what you're doing too. And and, you know, it sounds like your dates for your event coming up do you have the dates specifically for this upcoming event in April? Yeah. It's twenty fourth and twenty fifth. Okay. Well, tell tell listeners, like, what this event is and why they should be there because it sounds extraordinary, and I'm heartbroken that I'm gonna be out of the country that week.

51:00So it's called the future dental hygiene. That's kinda how I and so this is the sixth version that I've done, and each one has evolved. And each one has, you know, new faculty, just different different things. And so, going over salivary diagnostics, kinda going into AOX maintenance. You know, I I see that as a real necessity. I see that as I see Dennis just ducking that. You know, we got this we have this all on x. I don't Oh, man. Do I take it out? Do I unscrew it? Do I put it back? Oh, man. Yes. Out of money. And I said, I'm the I'm the person that's always going to take on those challenges. And I said, you know, it's time that we start to talk about what what what is a maintenance protocol.

51:40So I'll have a maintenance protocol of some kind, and it'll be consists of a lot of people that I know. Oh, this is great. Oh my god. And you're gonna be the first one to do this, Tom. Yeah. You're gonna be the first one. Yeah. And it there is such a massive need, and then and you might both know that there's such a gold rush on the all n x market right now. Now I was thinking a few years ago that it was just a fad, but in reality, there are over 30,000,000 edentulous Americans. And so I do think that the need is always gonna be there, and I do think it's a phenomenal service. But unfortunately, I do think there are people just jumping in, doing sloppy work to make a buck, and that is gonna lead to all kinds of problems.

52:22They're gonna have to get untangled. I'm seeing them already. I mean, I always I see it all over the place. So Yeah. So I wanted to address that. Yeah. So that's probably, you know, a little bit of a pivot. And once again, everything is new. One of the the salivary tests that I'm gonna be introducing is is MMP eight, and, Pacific Dental is now doing that on all new thing. And that's a, that's not a bacterial test. It's an inflammation test. And, I met the people in Germany who are Amazing. I think they're coming to kind of explain it. And once again, I'm a facilitator. Okay? Mhmm. I need to I'm I've been fortunate. I haven't really had to seek out these people. They kinda find me, and then I say, hey.

53:03You know, would you come to my meeting? And and, you know, I just kinda put everything together. And so it it is. It's it's the future of hygiene. Right? And so if you wanna if you wanna see what these are and then the the second day, we break into small groups and and you get to do a sample on somebody and and see how easy it is. Then you jump over and use a laser, and then you jump over and do guided biofilm therapy with your hands on. You know? Because that's the way for me to buy something, I wanna put it in my hand. I don't you know? And that's that's why I designed the the course that way. So So tell me tell me about that.

53:39You mentioned hygienists. Like, are hygienists going through some of this training with you, or is it just doctors? Because because hygienists are, like they are the heart and soul of our periodontal programs. And I would guess that the right hygienists get really excited about this. Yeah. No. For sure. Higher level diagnostics, higher level care, higher level relationships, and a sense that they're making a real difference. Well, it solves all of the problems that they you know, that we quote, unquote have in in the value. So let's say that the hygienist feels undervalued. Well, they're not undervalued. They're under trained because if if they come back with these skills and they're introducing Salary Diagnostics and there's income to be generated with that and, you know, and let's say that you compensate them one third of what they produce, whatever, it it all it's all there for them.

54:30Okay? Yes. And that's been my experience from the very first day when when I started to compensate my hygienist at extremely high level. And I was like, I don't care. You know? Everything everything's good. You know? But the problem is is that when the hygienist demand that kind of compensation when they're doing trophies well, you can't. I'm not in I'm not if I just got reimbursed $60 from Delta, then you're making $60 an hour. This is not a business. Okay? Oh, man. You're speaking my language. That doesn't that will not work. I am not in business to go broke. Okay? That's right. So either you get training or you come up with a model or the dentist, whatever. So so my experience has been the dentist will bring the hygiene team, the dentist because the dentist is really you know, they're the ones that pay the bills at the end of the day, and they're going to buy the technology.

55:21And and if there's one thing that my meeting has been famous for, my vendors will tell you, everybody that comes buys everything. They they buy they buy everything. Because get convicted. You laid you laid out the information so clearly and the benefits to patients, the benefits to the practice so there's no downside. They're like, they don't wanna reinvent the wheel. Like, okay. If Tom says this is what to do Right. I'm in. And and, Tom, that's just what a compliment to you. I mean, honestly, like, you gotta have real credibility for people to to do that because, I mean, most of the meetings I go to and there's, you know, like, very expensive technology, very low number of people actually jump in, you know, which is problem for the, you know, for the vendors who spend, you know, tens of thousands of dollars to be there.

56:06And if they sell two units, it's like, oh my god. Why did I do this? But they go to one of your events and get you get not only the right audience, but they're hearing the right message, and then they're getting the right solutions. And that is an amazing combination. Yeah. Yeah. And and I'm I'll be honest with you. I I backed into that. That was not a plan from the beginning. It's like I told you everything is involved and Yes. Evolved into this perfect entity. But, you know, it has So cool. You know what? And I think that's that's a lot of what happens to us in life and in the profession. I mean, you can't, like, have a clear vision of exactly how things are gonna work out.

56:42But I'm convinced that if you do the right things for the right reasons with the right people, like, good things happen. You know? And that's how luxury dental retreats came about. It's like, man, over the last twenty five years, I've had all these incredible experiences with these icons in the industry, you know, and we become friends. We have great relationships. And through those relationships, through through the way that I like to practice and the kinds of things I wanna do, it's just sort of a perfect storm. But, I mean, a year ago, a little over a year ago, I it never even occurred to me. But Yeah. You know, it's just kinda cool to see your thing coming together, see my thing coming together, and to be able to combine.

57:21I I'm super excited about, you know, doing a doing a program together sometime in 02/1926. 100%. 100%. Very cool. So, you know, last last question that that I have. You I'm thinking about just the oral systemic connection and how obvious it is, and there's just no question. I mean, this is scientifically proven. Are you still seeing a lot of dentists and or physicians who don't believe it? And, you know, for those people, like, what how do we communicate? Like, what is the the biggest piece of evidence or the thing that they should consider to to change their minds? Because I still hear it. That's a great question because, you know, I just the ones that are that are not seeing what's in front of them, right, they're I think they're choosing not to see it.

58:14Now whether or not they're going to have to have a personal experience, because a lot of times, you know, a person gets religion when they've had a personal health experience. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, oh my gosh. You know? Because at the end of the day, your health is everything. Right? It is it is it's over everything. So, maybe that's going to or or a family member or something like that. But I don't think there's any amount of convincing because I do know when I first started this, you know, ten or more years ago, I would get questions about, can you send me some research? Can you get I mean you know? Now that's not a question anymore. Like like you just said, this is a step.

58:49So Yeah. It's up to you. I think the decision is this. Are you happy with reactive care? And reactive care is a little bit redundant, and a person comes in and you're doing the same thing over and over again. It's a little monot or do you wanna kind of be a little bit more proactive and and more giving and more helpful towards, you you know, your potential? Yeah. And and that's that's a personal decision, and I can't you know? Yeah. You know, it's it's interesting. It reminds me when I was a a new dentist, you know, came out of school and had all this, like, knowledge, you know, just enough to be dangerous, you know, I think for a lot of people coming out of school.

59:27But I came out like, I knew that 16 surface amalgams really needed to be crowns. Well, I it was with a a lovely older gentleman, dentist, who was very, very conservative. And so we spent every day on emergencies. It's like just dropping into our schedule over and over, and it was crazy. And, man, what a difference it made when I turned things around and became more proactive. The day goes more smoothly. It's more predictable. Patients are more happy. You're not dealing with horrible situations. And Right. Boy, just thinking about it, you can extend that into this whole space. You know, instead of being reactive to all this disease Right. Why not be proactive and have healthy patients coming in who then are prepared to do whatever, you know, restorative treatment they either need or want?

1:00:17For sure. Yeah. Well, that's it in a nutshell. You Yeah. Yeah. You got it. You got the message. You know, what what did I miss? Like, what did we not talk about that you what is there any takeaway that you would like the dentist to listen today to to, like, walk away with? Anything any pearls of wisdom? No. I I think the last thing you said was, you know, was the was the most profound, you know, that that whole thing of of reactive versus proactive. It's a mindset. It it it's a it's a it's a significant it's the same thing that's happening in in medicine. Why are physicians quitting and whatever and becoming or flipping over to functional medicine and getting retrained and and, you know, they're they're almost like being born again.

1:01:00You know? Yeah. They literally, this this concept of helping people be the best version of themselves, helping people have the best version of their mouth is an is an awesome awesome thing. You know? Yeah. Well, you know, in at the end of the day, Tom, I I think one of the things that are it's really important to remember, I used to remind my team of this all the time, and I I had the best dental team on the planet. I trademarked that best dental team on the planet. They're amazing. And I I reminded them on a regular basis that, look. Whatever we would want in our own mouths, that is what we need to talk to patients about. Because if we don't, no one will.

1:01:39I mean, my god. There's so much need out there. All we have to do is take care of the needs of the patients who come to see us, and there will never be an end to the amount of stuff that we could do to help people get healthier. And so, you know, it's the golden rule. You know? Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. I mean, and that's I never thought about that in terms of dentistry, but it's so true. Right? Yeah. So that so the standard that I learned in school, there was an oral surgeon that I that I loved, and I I I like oral surgery. And he and he always said, you know, treat your patients like you would treat your mother.

1:02:12And you and and and when you carry that as a decision making process and you see somebody and and they're in a whatever. And you say, well, what if that was mom? Okay? Yeah. Right. That needs to be our standard of care because Yes. And and not to get off into a rabbit hole. But I've seen some pretty aggressive there's some pretty aggressive there's some teeth that are that I know are absolutely restorable, but people can rationalize all one x. They they rationalize it. Yeah. They'll take out perfectly good perfectly restorable teeth. Right? I know. I've seen more and more of that. And I say to them, if that was your mother in the chair, would you take all of her teeth out? I I I would have a hard time for somebody to look at me in the eye and honestly say, yes.

1:03:02Right? I I'm with you. Yeah. That's that's the ultimate bar for me. When I came out of school, there was a guy in our area who was well known for doing very expensive dentures. And, like, everybody who came to him I mean, when when your only tool is a hammer, everything looks like a nail, well, that is what they did. They were a denture mill, and they were doing dentures for, you know, teenagers. And look. They're they're probably most of the time, they're doing the right thing and all that kind of thing. I'm not casting aspersions. It's not like I was in there, like, looking at their work. But, you know, it it's kind of what I see happening now in a lot of cases.

1:03:38You know? It's kind of like, oh, well, gosh. I we could probably restore half of their teeth pretty well. But, And you know, they came in thinking they wanted this. So and then they justify it by saying, well, that's what the patient asked for. Like, Well, you know what? Is that the best thing, though? And so, you know, it's and and look. They're also shades of gray. You get 10 dentists in a room, you're gonna get, like, eight different treatment plans a lot of times. So, you know, we have to be we always have to be cautious and respectful of our of our colleagues. But you're right. You know, when we start to see these things kind of happening more and more frequently Yeah. And having these messes that need to be cleaned up from a surgical standpoint, oral systemic standpoint, you know, it's it's gonna be an interesting time ahead.

1:04:25Yep. Yeah. For sure. So Well, hey, Tom. How can how can people reach out to you? I mean, what tell them what your website is. Tell us about your your podcast so people can listen to that. And then finally, tell us how we can sign up for the for the event in April. So, my email is is very simple. It's tom@tomlarkin.com. And the event is oralsystemicmastery. And my, consulting website is pow,p0w,hygiene. That stands for proactiveoralwellness, powhygiene.com. So those are the three best ways to, to get in touch with me and, more than happy to set up a Hey, Tom. It's been a real pleasure. I mean, I've I've enjoyed getting to know you a little bit this year, and and this conversation is just I think it's one that needs to happen more and more frequently.

1:05:16And Sure. Consider me an evangelist. Like, I wanna help you spread the word and, you know, get more dentists the knowledge and training that they need to do better work for their patients. It's you know what? You can look at it as this is a scary time with all the changes or you can look at it as a super exciting time with all the positive directions that we can take dentistry in. And and that's really my mission. And I'm I'm so happy to have you on board with some other just amazing human beings doing the right things. And so thanks again, man. Can't wait to hang out in person sometime soon. Thank you. Very nice. Alright. Well, I appreciate it. And everybody, this has been just another episode of the Foundation Dental podcast.

1:05:56Thanks so much for listening. Be sure to follow Tom's information in the show notes, and go to foundationdentalalliance.com for more information about the Foundation Dental Alliance and all the things that we're doing to try to make dentistry better than it's ever been. Have a great day. Alright.