Why Is Everyone Hiding This?

0:01Dr. Jim Arnold My guest today earned her master's degree in strategy before she even picked up a handpiece. Dr. Ellie Hilabian is a restorative dentist in New York City, adjunct faculty at the NYU College of Dentistry and the creator of the Teeth Matter Podcast and community. She spent more than eighty episodes of her show asking our profession the questions it usually keeps to itself. Ellie, welcome to the show.

0:23Ellie Halabian Wow, Doctor Arnold, what a what an intro. Thanks for having me on.

0:25Dr. Jim Arnold my gosh, absolutely. I I had the pleasure of being on your show last year, which was super fun. We had a great conversation about like kind of burnout and some of the strategies that we've developed in our own careers to kind of, you know, avoid that, you know, or sort of get past that. And I know that's been a com pretty common theme on your show.

0:45Ellie Halabian Absolutely, yeah. I mean dentistry as you know is a very, very demanding profession and I think we need a little bit of help pushing through in order to have like a long, successful, healthy career.

0:56Dr. Jim Arnold Yeah, healthy careers I think one of the keys and that it's one of the things that I you know, it's been a as we both know, it's been an issue in our industry for decades. And I love that you and so many others are kind of I I guess addressing that directly, you know, in a way that I don't think has been addressed so much in the past.

1:15Ellie Halabian Yeah, I mean i for some reason people keep quiet in dentistry. I don't know why, maybe they don't want to s seem like they're, you know, ch ch challenged or struggling because it might be insight into how they're doing clinically. It's by no means a reflection of your clinical skills. I think life is hard regardless. So it's nice to bring some attention to it, to be open about it, to be honest and it's a judgment free zone. I think we should try to help each other kind of grow together. Otherwise it's a very isolated profession and and life is kind of boring or sad if you do it alone.

1:48Dr. Jim Arnold Yeah, no, absolutely. And I love that. I love drawing attention to that. And you know, you've hosted over a hundred episodes or I'm sorry, over eighty episodes, like I said. And you've also been a guest on a lot of podcasts, which is is pretty cool. It speaks volumes to I think the quality of conversations that you're having in the industry. And you know, today though, I'm gonna get Off the beaten path just a little bit. I'm gonna try to maybe talk about some of the things that you haven't been asked about quite as much because you've got you've had a really interesting career to this point and I love it. So I want to kind of get into that a little bit. All right. You know, you've got a lot going on, obviously, with the podcast and with your your hangouts and with teaching and practicing and everything else. What's a typical Tuesday look like for you, Ellie?

2:19Ellie Halabian Yeah, let's do it. So that's a great question. Until this past year, my schedule was just like a little chaotic. I was jumping around between offices, I was working in multiple locations, and I've only just gotten into a routine. And it's kind of nice, I'm not gonna lie. so now I work four days a week.

2:49Dr. Jim Arnold Yeah.

2:54Ellie Halabian Four days clinical and I teach one day at NYU. And so of my week of that five-day work week, Monday through Wednesday, I'm in one location. My Thursdays I'm off essentially. And then Fridays, I'm working at the second location. So that's how my week looks like now. And honestly, I love the breakup. It's I go into work the Monday through Wednesday. I know that's the hardest piece, the hardest chunk of the week. And then it's nice to have like a calmer Thursday.

2:55Dr. Jim Arnold Mm-hmm. Yeah.

3:24Ellie Halabian Where I feel like, my weekend is already starting, you know, my energy shifts. And then I feel like by Friday, most people are already like a little bit checked out when it comes to work. Like they're on a happier, like more fun vibe. And so I end my week softly on the Friday, and it and it's been great. I'm I'm very content. Very content. And then yeah.

3:45Dr. Jim Arnold I love that.

3:47Ellie Halabian And then a lot of my other stuff which I manage, whether it's podcast or whatnot, might fall into the weekend. If if it's not on Thursday, if I don't have the energy to do it on Thursday, then I'll do it on the weekend.

3:58Dr. Jim Arnold I I love that, Ellie. And you've done such a great job online at just kind of documenting your career in a way that not many people do. And I think it's been really eye opening for for a lot of people, especially for young dentists, you know, who are in school or have just graduated and and I think really look to you for a lot of guidance.

4:17Ellie Halabian I mean, I hope I'm that for them. I I really didn't see the truth or the hardships of dentistry beforehand. Even when I was shadowing other dentists, I never really felt that tension or the dissatisfaction or the heaviness of maybe running an office. And now that I'm in it, I realize like it's not easy. And finding your first job is not easy. Be trying to prove your worth to your employer is a whole, you know, it's a journey. And and just building the clinical skills. I mean a lot of dentistry I've even Though you learn how to do some dentistry, when you go into practice, you're not given like the ideal situation. So a lot of times I feel like you're trying to fix problems, trial and error, and it's a lot of creativity that comes with doing dentistry, clinical dentistry, which is something that you have to come that comes with experience. And so because of that.

4:57Dr. Jim Arnold Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

5:12Ellie Halabian like difficulty, the surprise, the element of surprise, I found it challenging in the beginning and I was like, why doesn't anyone share this? What's why is everyone hiding this? I mean there's no shame in talking about it. And now I talk about it very openly, very candidly. And I think the kids that kids or whether they're in dental school or maybe people who just graduated or even people who are maybe seasoned dentists who are still associates who are still struggling to find their dental home.

5:41Dr. Jim Arnold Mm-hmm.

5:42Ellie Halabian they relate and it's comforting and it's nice to have someone who they can open up to.

5:49Dr. Jim Arnold Wow. Well that that's great. I love it. And I I agree. It's not just for dental students, not just for you know, new dentists. It's it's a refreshing perspective for a lot of us, you know, even, you know, guys like me, I've been in dentistry for thirty years. And although I'm not practicing anymore, I definitely get a lot of insight from your experiences that that help me in terms of my mentoring of of other dentists as well.

6:10Ellie Halabian That's great to hear. I I I love that. And it's interesting, like I've had people message me who are Susan Dentists who are much older in terms of or much more advanced in their career and they they message me in asking for comfort or maybe some my my they try to pick my brain on maybe a decision they're about to make. And so it's nice that I can be there for other people. I like that's the kind of impact I wanna leave. Yeah.

6:16Dr. Jim Arnold Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That's awesome. So when your alarm goes off in the morning, are you more excited on the days you're going in the office or days that you're going to teach?

6:41Ellie Halabian Is this a true question?

6:42Dr. Jim Arnold No, no, I'm curious. Yeah.

6:45Ellie Halabian Honestly the days I teach. The days I teach are a lot more rewarding. I it's it's not to say that it's not draining because the days are still long and it's you're giving your energy to people and having these conversations, maybe on repeat because sometimes you're teaching them the same concept. but it's hard to be fully present for one person and then imagine a class of four hundred, you know? So an NYU is a very large class and it's only getting larger. So

6:52Dr. Jim Arnold Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Is it really four hundred?

7:15Ellie Halabian When I was in school, I went to NYU we were about three eighty and now they're at just over four hundred. It's yeah, it's it's a large

7:22Dr. Jim Arnold Wow, that's extraordinary. I had no idea. My class had 88 people. 400. That's crazy. You know, I I did I did some research you know, to prep for this and i I did read that it basically graduates about 10% of dentists every single year, which is just a wild statistic.

7:40Ellie Halabian Right. Yeah, that's a significant number. And the class sizes are only getting bigger. it's they the way they've set it up, the kids still get a good education. Like I found my education to be fantastic. I and no matter whether you're in a class size of eighty or four hundred, the experience is what you make of it. So if you're bold and you go ask questions and if you're like take initiative, then you're gonna really get a lot of out of your experience, whether that's if you go to an eighty person school or a four hundred person school. So I think the opportunities are endless. I just think you have to be a bit of a you have to have a want to learn and a want to fail also. Like when things don't go right, which they probably won't a lot of the time

8:00Dr. Jim Arnold Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

8:21Ellie Halabian that you're doing your first ever. you gotta be able to ask the questions and try again. And and that that school is the place for that. So NYU for me was a really great experience. I loved it and I loved being in New York. New York's my home. So I didn't see myself going anywhere else.

8:35Dr. Jim Arnold Yeah. Yeah, I wondered about that. Are you a native New York New Yorker?

8:40Ellie Halabian I am. I am born and bred in New York City, which is a pretty rare breed, but I always have to preface that I did live in Montreal. So I lived in New till I was thirteen. I moved to Montreal for high school and I stayed there through university and then I came back to New York, knowing that New York is gonna be my home.

8:52Dr. Jim Arnold Mm-hmm. Hm. amazing. That's so cool. You know, like to to have lived there until thirteen and then to move away and just be looking forward to getting back home again. And here you are, you know, with a full blown career and life and how exciting for you.

9:15Ellie Halabian Yeah, it's so it's crazy. I actually went to Montreal actually for summer for a couple of days and I went to my old high school and at my old high school I ran into some of my teachers and old old schoolgirls and they were like, I see that you live in New York. my god, that's so exciting. Like it was such a big deal, you know, leaving some smaller city for such a like such a dream place. And I I gotta say, I'm I'm very appreciative of the life that I have.

9:35Dr. Jim Arnold Yeah. Yeah.

9:45Ellie Halabian Yeah. Life has been good to me.

9:46Dr. Jim Arnold That's that's awesome. Now, having lived in Montreal, I assume that your French is pretty good.

9:52Ellie Halabian Well, French is like my third language, so it's yeah, so I do speak French. I had to learn French for school, exams, that kind of thing. But it's my mind doesn't work in French. I I'll say that, yeah.

9:54Dr. Jim Arnold Really? Okay. Interesting. So, you know, one of the more interesting things I read about you when I was doing my research was an interview you did for Dente magazine. you described yourself as linen, which I thought was really interesting. I loved that. It was breathable, natural, honest, relaxed, but never careless. So so tell me about that.

10:14Ellie Halabian Mm-hmm. It's a

10:28Dr. Jim Arnold Did I read it right? First of all, did I actually read that right or okay. Yeah.

10:31Ellie Halabian Yeah. No, no, no. You read it right. I wrote that a long time ago and I f I really do think that fits my personality. Like linen is a is a material that I see or I personally use in summer a lot, right? And I'm when I'm on vacation and when it it's when I'm always in my best mood. But it's also something breathable. It's not tight, it's not suffocating. I don't want to be restricted. I want them to have the element of movement. It's fluid in that way. So that's how I see myself. I'm not someone who's constrained or I don't like to be constrained. I don't like to put limitations on myself. And I enjoy flexibility. And part of that is flexibility in movement and trying things and traveling and experiencing. And I think that's why linen suits me b best.

11:06Dr. Jim Arnold Mm-hmm. I love that. That is I honestly it's the most interesting description I think I've ever read. And I was just so fascinated by that. And I I love the way you explain that.

11:21Ellie Halabian Yeah. I mean Yeah, yeah. I mean it it was definitely the first time I got that question. So I had a a lot of thought went into it.

11:31Dr. Jim Arnold Yeah, no, absolutely. No, I love that. So I know before dental school you worked with with Dr. Levine at Glow Science. And what did that look like for you on a typical Wednesday?

11:41Ellie Halabian yeah. So Glow Science was the first job that I actually ever had, I would say. I w up until My parents never asked me to work growing up. I was the focus was school, school, school. And I was dedicated in going to dental school. So like I knew that I gotta get all the grades because I knew it was competitive. So my focus was always school. And then at some point when I graduated, I applied to dental school and I didn't get in. And when I didn't get in, it crushed my ego. But then obviously I had to fill my time. So I needed to better my application. So that was part of that was doing my masters. And in doing my masters, I applied for an internship. And that was at Glow Science.

12:13Dr. Jim Arnold Mm.

12:25Ellie Halabian So that was technically my first job. And so at Glow Science I was doing the marketing side, the PR side of dentistry. And it was good for me because up until that point my studies had always been like theoretical didactic like science, science, science. And I never knew what how to do anything about communication. I didn't know anything about business. I didn't know anything about leadership. And I thought, well, if I want to be a dentist and if I ever want to have my own practice or if I ever want to work with someone, I gotta know how all of this works. The back end works. So I said, let me go do this master's. And in that master's, I was like, let me get a job and see how this all relates. So I I interviewed for Glow Science. I got the internship.

12:48Dr. Jim Arnold Isn't it?

13:09Ellie Halabian and that was incredible exposure. I did so much. I learned a lot about marketing, a lot about PR, a lot about communication, business strategy and development because it was still a startup, so it was like trying to help the business grow and trying to, yeah, I I got to put that creativity hat on and also the entrepreneurship hat. And that was my first exposure, which was incredible.

13:22Dr. Jim Arnold Right. So I didn't come across this in my research, but it brought back a memory. Was was Lenny Kravitz involved with that at some level? Okay. I'm not making that up.

13:40Ellie Halabian Yes, so they are so they no, no, no, you're not making that that they are a team. So the Glow Science has a charitable arm called the Glow Good Foundation. And their first trip was out in Rwanda. And from then they've c every year been going to different places internationally and locally. But in the last couple of years, they partnered with Lenny Kravitz to do or to take care of dental needs in Bahamas in Eleuthra, which is where Lenny Kravitz is from, or his ho one of his hometowns. And

14:09Dr. Jim Arnold Yeah. Yeah.

14:14Ellie Halabian And so yeah, so they go every year and I had the privilege of going with them about two years ago. Two years ago. Yeah. And that was an incredible experience. Like if you wanna reignite your passion for dentistry, you gotta do good and and that's doing something like a mission trip like Glow Good.

14:22Dr. Jim Arnold Amazing. Yeah. that's so amazing. You know, it's funny, Dr. Arun Garg is a good friend of mine and he bought a hotel on Eleuthra. And so we went we went a couple of years ago and I know Lenny Kravitz's estate is just down the street. And I know that the group that that goes to volunteer, a lot of them stay in Arun's hotel. So I I missed it by a couple of weeks, but I can't wait to do that one of these days.

15:00Ellie Halabian Yeah, no, you definitely should. I highly recommend. I will go back when I can. It's it is it's it's exhausting 'cause you're doing d dentistry from morning to night. You're trying to help as many people as you can. And the people appreciate it. The people on the island, they all know you. Like they know, like they see you, they're like, you're the Glow Good Foundation. Like they have such an appreciation and such a sense of gratitude for the work that's done. and every year the group just gets bigger and bigger. Like la when I went NYU was a part of it,

15:07Dr. Jim Arnold Mm.

15:29Ellie Halabian Harvard was a part of it, Boston was a part of it, Nova was a part of it. so it's just it's just building and it's nice to have this community of people who want to do good in this world. Yeah.

15:40Dr. Jim Arnold Amazing. That's so cool. So now as is part of your job with them, d n did I read correctly that you got their products on the shelves in Sephora?

15:50Ellie Halabian Yeah, yeah. So this is why I'm saying my entrepreneur hat came on. It was like I had never known or done any kind of work with B2B, nothing I knew nothing about logistics or operations. And so I was helping create product or product packaging, merchandising, and like selling to Bloomingdales and Sephora and making sure that when it launches on, you know, when you go into the store and you have that whole wall that it looks right. so it was a lot of graphic design. and

15:54Dr. Jim Arnold Yeah. Mm-hmm.

16:22Ellie Halabian Part of that comes into what I do now with the podcast and creating content. Like I'm a very visually directed person and th I have a lot of fun with it.

16:31Dr. Jim Arnold That's so cool. I mean, your your experiences are just so unique, Ellie. I mean, nobody else like has ever done the things that you've already done. And that kind of that I think the unique experiences as you've had have really uniquely qualified you to do some some interesting things in the industry.

16:50Ellie Halabian Yeah, I appreciate that. I think so too. I mean the when I look back on it, when I first graduated school, I told you I didn't get into dental school and I was so sad about it. I was like frustrated. and then to be honest, I applied again and I didn't get in the second time. I actually only got in my third time. And so in between I had to do a lot of things to kind of fill my time, to boost my application, also to make money, because I saw all my friends are now graduated and building their careers and I'm sitting here still like, let's do biology again, you know.

16:57Dr. Jim Arnold Mm-hmm. Yeah.

17:20Ellie Halabian mean like it it's just I I felt like I was stuck and so I needed to advance my my education but also my skill set and so that's why I to did a master's in strategy and leadership because I was like if I want to run a business or be a leader as a dentist is one then I need to know how to communicate with people and that's why Glowgood came into play and and then it just all layered and I feel like that's what life is like even if you don't get what you want the first shot like everything you in life that you experience is meant to layer

17:20Dr. Jim Arnold Yeah, right. Yeah.

17:50Ellie Halabian on top of it's a one building block on top of the next and it just makes you a lot more I don't know. I feel like it it I always I always use this analogy and I think like, you know, when you see a used to see like a web page loading it would go from zero to one hundred.

17:50Dr. Jim Arnold Mm-hmm. Yeah.

18:09Ellie Halabian And people go through like traditional milestones and I think that's like zero, then it's like ten, then it's like the t the traditionals are like the benchmarks that you typically see. But I think when you layer and you see these life experiences, then it gives you it helps you get to a hundred and live a more full life. Yeah. Yeah.

18:27Dr. Jim Arnold What a cool perspective. I mean, I I I agree a hundred percent that all of our life experiences have the I mean, they can make us more well-rounded, you know, and I think having a variety of perspectives like that has a great deal of value, pretty much no matter what you're doing in life, but certainly in dentistry, it's such a complex industry, you know, with all of the relationships that we hold, you know, with teams and with patients and within the industry itself. That that's like just a a really valuable perspective, I think, that not many people get.

18:56Ellie Halabian Yeah, and and I at the time I didn't see it as valuable. I was just so frustrated. But now that I've had on the other end, I'm like, wow, like I am so lucky that I got that extra year. Like we were talking offline about like traveling and backpacking, right? I got a year to go backpacking and like who gets that? Like there's no way I can just drop and leave now. Like I have more responsibility now than I did five years ago or ten years ago. So I was very fortunate and I wouldn't have done it any other way. I'm really happy with it.

19:00Dr. Jim Arnold Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. I'm sorry, did you just say a year of backpacking? What? You gotta be kidding me. How long ago was that? And where the heck did you go? That's amazing.

19:28Ellie Halabian Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I so after Glow Good, I'm working with them for a while. That I had gone from internship to getting a job and then having different roles in the in the company. And then at one point I'm like, Doc, I don't I this is not for me. I really know that I want dental school, but like I just need some time between now and dental school. And he was like, okay. So then I when I left Glow, I was like, I got time of where am I gonna go? So was like, I've been studying all my life. I I I don't wanna sit at a desk right now and study again. I'm just gonna go travel. So I traveled for a year. I traveled by myself. I went to 20 countries in a year, and it was the best. This was like 2015, 2016.

19:58Dr. Jim Arnold Ha ha ha.

20:19Ellie Halabian Once I finished my year, I came back home to New York and I was like, Okay, I think I should sit down and study now. So that's when I sat down and studied for the DAT again. And and I and I only started dental school at twenty seven.

20:29Dr. Jim Arnold Yeah. Wow. You know, that that's fantastic though. I mean, I think that I I, you know, I started when I was 23 and I think I would have been more prepared, you know, having more experiences like those, you know, and being just a little bit older. I think that probably gave you a pretty unique advantage over some of your classmates. And just I think perspective, you know, global perspective based upon all these cool experiences that you'd had.

20:57Ellie Halabian Yeah. I mean, I think it's really come in handy, especially after school. Like when it comes to connecting with patients and having empathy for people, it's been really nice to have traveled so much to be able to find a commonality with a patient. Like either there's been an experience that I can relate to or maybe I've been to their country or maybe I know a word in their language that they would be surprised, you know, like it's been a very interesting gift.

21:04Dr. Jim Arnold Mm-hmm. Mm. Yeah.

21:25Ellie Halabian And I find it more so valuable now that I'm moving through life as a provider than as a student.

21:31Dr. Jim Arnold Yeah. Well, you know, I mean, one of the things for us as dentists, it's so important to be relatable to our patients, you know, to find that common ground. And and some of us are better at it than others, but you know, with that kind of global perspective, especially in a melting pot like New York City, where you've got to have a super diverse patient population to have visited 20 countries before you even went to dental school, you know, again, it just puts you in such an interesting position in terms of that relationship building piece.

22:01Ellie Halabian Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And so, I mean, I I I still love to travel. I try to travel, but it's a little bit more challenging these days. Not gonna lie.

22:10Dr. Jim Arnold You have a few things on your plate right now, you know, that's understandable. And and you know, this this season will pass and you you'll get back to your roots, I I have no doubt.

22:23Ellie Halabian Yeah, I I like adventure, so I'm sure I'll make it happen.

22:26Dr. Jim Arnold So, you know, you got out of dental school though and you went straight into residency. You know, how did you make that decision? I mean, weren't weren't you like eager to get out there and start practicing right away? And what was that experience like?

22:39Ellie Halabian You know, that's a great question. When that phase of D four happened, you're there, you're like, Do I apply for residency? Do I apply for specialty? Do I do I go straight into work?

22:48Dr. Jim Arnold Yeah.

22:48Ellie Halabian I was really torn and I was like, I want to make money. I told you I started dental school at 27. I already felt older than the rest of the kids. I wanted to be I wanted I wanted for my life to start and I didn't know how that that should look like. So I went to my GPD who was like like our clinic director. I she was a mentor, so I asked her for her input. She was like, go straight go into work. You're compare like she's like from my history of teaching, I know you have the capability to go to work and be okay.

22:55Dr. Jim Arnold Mm-hmm. Yeah.

23:18Ellie Halabian Okay, it'll be scary. Everything is scary. You're gonna be fine. So she was like, she was really encouraging me to go to work, and she's like, I know some contacts, maybe you go to DC, maybe you start, you know, in a DSO, whatever. So she she encouraged me to do that. So I had some calls, some interviews with some people, and that was an option. It would that was I got a contract, that was an option. And I'm like looking at this contract, I like, do I really want to leave New York and go to DC and be stuck in this DSO? And and and at the same time,

23:19Dr. Jim Arnold Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

23:48Ellie Halabian Again, another part of the story is I wanted to do pedo. I went into dentistry thinking that I'm gonna be a pediatric dentist. And even though I didn't get much exposure in dental school as like during pedo rotations, I still thought that that's what I wanted because I had this dream or vision. And so I was like, I applied to pedo, and guess what? I didn't get in. So then I'm like waitlisted again. I'm waitlisted again.

23:56Dr. Jim Arnold Interesting. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

24:15Ellie Halabian I do like the second round of interviews. I didn't get into that second program. And then I got a third offer for another wait list and I didn't get into that program. I'm like I feel like such a failure. All my classmates got matched. They all are going to G GPU residencies or they got their specialty program. And I'm here like still no match. What am I gonna do? I'm calling every director that I know. I'm like going to every teacher that I know. And they're all like, wait, just wait. And at some point I got a call about an opening that happened like a month down the line in Westchester. So I live in Manhattan. Westchester is like a 45 minute hour drive. And it's at a level one trauma center. And I was like, Yeah. I was like, this is it. I was like, I've also always wanted to like have that like on call experience. so because I like surgery too.

25:01Dr. Jim Arnold Yeah. Hmm. Mm.

25:15Ellie Halabian And yeah, so then I was like, okay, this is it. And I went to that program. There was only three residents. It was a level one trauma center. It was very much OS heavy. And I got to do some crazy shit. And I loved it. Yeah. I loved it. I loved it.

25:24Dr. Jim Arnold Yeah. Really? You know, those those denials or whatever are like the best things that could have possibly happened to you because every time that you had to pivot, you pivoted into a space that you ended up like really enjoying or at least deriving a ton of value from. And that that's had to have a a a significant impact on your career and what you do clinically now, I would guess.

25:54Ellie Halabian a hundred percent. Like I had no fear once I left. I was like, I can tackle anything. If I could be up all night taking call and and putting together someone's face, I think I'll be fine. with whatever else. So I got a lot of experience, a lot of exposure, w whether in clinic or in the ER or in a surgery O R. and that was really cool and I loved that. And it was a part of dentistry that really had a heavy insight into medicine. Like that that link was very obvious in that setting. And that's what I think I really appreciated, the the correlation between like oral health and systemic health. and yeah, that was a great experience. And I'm still really close with my resident friends because I think we went through a really tough time together. yeah, we really relied on each other.

26:27Dr. Jim Arnold Mm-hmm. Yeah. Were were you sad when it was over? I mean, like those intense experiences, I mean, that you could it could go either way. You could be completely drained and like, my God.

26:55Ellie Halabian I mean I mean s it was sleepless nights. Like every other night you're on call and so like it it and you had to like stay at the hospital. You couldn't be home.

26:58Dr. Jim Arnold Yeah.

27:06Ellie Halabian But it was it was like a bittersweet goodbye, you know? Like it was like, I have my freedom again. Like I don't have to worry about sleep. I can actually have a good night's rest. But at the same time, it was like, like we had such a tight family because we were together so much. and it's nice that we were all still in touch. But for a long time I had PTSD. I felt like I heard the beeper going off. Anytime I heard any kind of sound, I was like, no. But it was cool. It was great. And I'm glad that I got to do that. It worked out for me.

27:19Dr. Jim Arnold Mm-hmm. Yeah.

27:36Ellie Halabian Needless to say, I don't like peeves. I come to that conclusion that I don't like Peter.

27:38Dr. Jim Arnold Yeah. That's so funny. But again, you know, what a blessing that that you didn't get into the program because your life would be completely different today if you had.

27:50Ellie Halabian Totally. Very different.

27:52Dr. Jim Arnold Yeah. So coming out of that program and going into actual practice, like what was that transition like for you?

28:00Ellie Halabian So that transition was interesting because it I started looking for jobs as the as the residency was coming to an end and I had my director s share an opportunity with me and I went to an interview and that was like a fifth that was an that was a practice, that was a cosmetic practice on Fifth Avenue and I'm like, wow, I'm gonna start off like high. Like this is gonna be great. I'm landing a dream job. And I would go to that interview and they're like asking me to just do profies. They're like, maybe you'll get interaction with patients. maybe you'll do an emergency if we're not busy and it just seemed like very limited. And also the pay wasn't a lot. for

28:25Dr. Jim Arnold Yeah. Mm-hmm.

28:42Ellie Halabian it came to like a daily and I'm like, well, I if I'm planning to live in New York City, I gotta make more than this because this I I won't be able to survive if I'm doing the bare minimum for them. but also coming out of that residency, like you said, I had seen so much and I was like on such a high of what I can do and what I'm capable of that I just wanted to keep accelerating. Like I didn't want the I didn't want to you know hit any kind of plateau.

28:44Dr. Jim Arnold Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

29:08Ellie Halabian So I wanted to hit the ground running and I like, this isn't the place for me. So that opportunity w went out the window, but then I got a chance to talk to somebody who worked at an FQH. And it was like, okay, well I get a salary. I don't have to worry about production because I'm gonna be slow in the beginning. I don't have to worry about how much I'm turning out. This way I'm like I have a fixed salary, I get benefits, there's a CE stipend that I can use. And so that seemed like a better opportunity or a better solution to my first job.

29:28Dr. Jim Arnold Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

29:45Ellie Halabian And so I ended up going to the FQH because I thought, okay, I'll get my reps and I have all of these benefits and my income is steady and I'll be able to secure like something in the city. And I did that for a year and that was horrible. That was horrible.

30:00Dr. Jim Arnold Huh. What what was what wasn't was didn't work out well?

30:06Ellie Halabian it was so volume based. It was super volume based. there was very limited resources and I thought, okay, like I was told that I could do whatever I want, ask for whatever I want, but the people there were not really committed, so the staff wasn't very involved. they had no sense of like urgency in terms of care, but also like the senior management.

30:09Dr. Jim Arnold Mm. Mm-hmm.

30:32Ellie Halabian was trying to meet quotas. So we were seeing patients every half hour, whether it was an emergency, whether it was a filling, whether it was a crown prep. And I'm like, I cannot do this. Especially when I have a staff that is also new who doesn't know what these procedures are. So I just felt like I was falling behind. And I just felt like my quality of dentistry was like shit because I didn't have time with the patient. and so it it was just I realized it's not the setup that I want. And then I ended up leaving after a year.

30:42Dr. Jim Arnold Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, I you know, it seems like that's a that's a common experience for a lot of new grads. You know, they come out and they get into these situations where the volume expectation is outrageous. you know, especially for somebody who's new coming out to be expected to keep up that pace and keep up s you know, some level of quality of care. And it's just it's it's a bad situation for a lot of young dentists, I think.

31:26Ellie Halabian Totally. And I think we settle for a job because we're just either desperate or we're too excited and we don't really know what we're looking for. So we're just yes manning everything. Like if they're like, can you do root canals? Yeah, I root canals. Can you do X I root can be like some people might not love them or they might not be good at them or fast at them. So there's a lot a little bit of dishonesty that happens on both ends.

31:32Dr. Jim Arnold Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

31:48Ellie Halabian No, they pr overpromise and we under deliver in a way. and it's it doesn't end up being a good marriage and it's it ends and because it's not, like you end up having your first experience being a bad experience and that leaves a bad taste in your mouth. Yeah. Yeah.

31:51Dr. Jim Arnold Yeah. Mm. Yes, it does. Yeah, I I know my my first experience was wasn't exactly that. I mean, it was a very kind of bread and butter, very family oriented practice. But Ellie, I probably spent two thirds of my first two years in dentistry doing profis, you know, and and honestly, I was pretty miserable. I was making almost no money. I was stressed about debt. And I mean, even 30 years ago, 120,000 was a ton of money. But the one thing it did for me was I did build a lot of relationships with the patients. You know, when you think about hygienists and how much time they spend with patients, it was the, you know, the the silver lining was I was spending an hour with patients like every six months or so. And, you know, during those two years, people really got to know me. So when I did take over, it ended up being a blessing in disguise, like so many of these things that we sort of take for granted while we're going through it or hate it while we're going through it, I guess.

32:58Ellie Halabian Right. Yeah, no, totally. I the the key is relationship and relationship building. And I see the benefit in that and and it might be for some people who are okay doing the profus the first six months or one year and everyone's journey is different. but it was just of I wanted to do more and I wanted to play more and you know, and and that was not the space for me. So Yeah.

33:07Dr. Jim Arnold Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Especially coming out of that residency where you got to do such amazing things like to step from that into Profi World had it be

33:30Ellie Halabian Yeah. It was like I was going from this wild, wild west to like Boringville and I was like I couldn't do that.

33:38Dr. Jim Arnold No, no, not at all. But now, like today in practice, what are your favorite things to do now and and what things do you not like so much?

33:46Ellie Halabian You know, it's funny. I hate class twos. I hate class twos. Class twos and even class threes. Who likes a class it's not even a class three can get messy. I hate. And it seems to be the most basic thing you would think that like because they teach it in school as drilling one one, that it should be a a one and done. But it it's a disaster sometimes.

33:50Dr. Jim Arnold Join the club. my god. No one. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

34:14Ellie Halabian And what I love the most crown preps. Crown preps I just I found what birds work for me. I it's become faster. I can seem like I see it better now.

34:17Dr. Jim Arnold Mm-hmm. Yeah.

34:27Ellie Halabian You know, I've gotten used to what it looks like and how my hand moves and I just have an easier time like maneuvering. so I enjoy the crown preps. I enjoy playing with veneers and more aesthetic cases and that's been a lot of fun. but my hate my hate is clusters.

34:27Dr. Jim Arnold Mm-hmm. Well, you know, it's funny. I mean, class twos take I I remember in practice, I mean class twos took longer than crown preps. They were longer and less predictable and you know, they don't pay and and all of that stuff. And so no, I I can totally relate. And I mean it's and crown preps, it's all about the systems. It's about which burrs you use in which order. And from an efficiency standpoint, I mean, you can prep a crown in five minutes, you know, and do it really, really well.

35:13Ellie Halabian Yeah, exactly. And I and I like the predictability now. You know, I like the repetition. I know exactly the sequence. And so it's predictable. Like you said, when it comes to these class twos, it's like even if I do it the same way every time, like for whatever reason, it's never gonna look as nice as the last time or you know what I mean? I don't see improvement, which is sad to say.

35:17Dr. Jim Arnold Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. No, I I know and I think a lot of dentists can relate to that sentiment. But you know

35:38Ellie Halabian Yeah. Yeah. I I should take a class on class twos, to be honest.

35:42Dr. Jim Arnold yeah, I mean hell, we all should take a class. I think I took I took man, now Ron Ron Jackson's class at LVI a million years ago was was exceptional for that. And and you know, Ellie, it was funny. I came back to my practice and I started putting you know, put putting just like the the the little staining in the grooves, all this stuff, and it looked beautiful and took forever. Like it was I lost money every time I did one of these and every time that I showed the picture with

35:52Ellie Halabian Okay.

36:11Dr. Jim Arnold pride to the patient, like how natural it looked like they're like, what's that dark stuff in the grooves? And it's just like, my God, like I'm doing this at the highest level you can. I'm not making money. Patients don't appreciate it. Okay, I'm back to hating this again.

36:15Ellie Halabian Mm. Isn't it crazy that patients come to you and then they're like, How long is this gonna take? It's like you don't go to a surgeon and ask, How long is this gonna take? You know, like you you want something to be done well, right? Like why are you rushing it?

36:36Dr. Jim Arnold Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, I always look at it more in terms of efficiency. I mean, you should never be rushing anything. patients appreciate efficiency because they don't want to be in the chair longer than they have to be. By the same token, yeah, man, as a patient, it's like, Hey, if it takes six hours, it takes six hours because I just want to make sure that it's done right either way.

36:50Ellie Halabian Yeah. Right. Yeah. I mean I I feel like that's the type of patient I would be like I understand that it's a vulnerable position to be in, that the sounds are not the nicest, that it's a little uncomfortable. I get that. I get I get freaked out by a cleaning, okay? And I'm at the But like at this I don't understand why patients are so, I don't know, underappreciative or ungrateful when it comes to the work we do.

37:04Dr. Jim Arnold Yeah. Ha ha ha. Yeah. It, you know, it it is crazy. And I mean, it's one of the biggest things I think, just I mean, even in terms of mental health and how the profession can kind of beat us up, you know, because there's so much anxiety associated with having dental work done, and you know, so little appreciation for how difficult it is. And and yeah, I mean, I think a lot of us going through that, especially in the first few years, like take that stuff. Personally. It's like, you know, when a patient comes in and says, nothing personal, doc, but I hate dentists. It's like, no, that's very personal, by the way.

37:50Ellie Halabian Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, like I am dentist. So like you can't be like Yeah. No, totally.

37:55Dr. Jim Arnold Exactly. Exactly. So like looking at you and your like career as a as a faculty member, you know, what what do you think like in that first hour with a first year dental student, you know, what what do you want to teach them? What do they need to know first?

38:14Ellie Halabian Hmm. They need to know that they've got time, that there is no rush. Because I think when you f freak out on the amount of time you have, when you think that time is a restriction or a limitation, you tend to lose like your calm. And when you lose your calm, then you start maybe your hand shakes a little, or maybe you miss a step. And so you become a l you end up losing sight of.

38:19Dr. Jim Arnold Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

38:43Ellie Halabian Protocol, let's say. and that's really important in dentistry to be systematic, but also to do something with confidence. Part of being under pressure is moving through it with confidence. And so I would tell them that they have time. You're not gonna get it right the first time, you're not gonna get it right the second time. But as long as you learn the steps, you know, then you're gonna be okay.

38:44Dr. Jim Arnold Mm-hmm. Mm mm. That's that's such good advice. Yeah, I and honestly, 30 years in a dentistry, I've never heard anybody say that. And it's so, it's so apt because I remember as a first year myself, like I did not have the the hand eye coordination. I did not have that the hand skills that you need to be to be good. And I remember that first semester, Ellie, it was so frustrating. I was so impatient. And I thought, I'm never gonna learn this. I'm gonna be terrible dentist, and maybe I should do something else.

39:23Ellie Halabian Yeah. Yeah.

39:33Dr. Jim Arnold And and you know, it did take the patience of a mentor, you know, somebody who was a couple years ahead of me, sat down with me between first and second semester, and we just worked. We just did reps over and over and over on those ivorine teeth that cut like butter. And and you know, that second semester I was like number two in my class, you know, in the in the clinic. So to your point, it it's just a matter of of being persistent and just doing the reps, right?

39:47Ellie Halabian Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. yeah, a hundred percent. And it comes with time. Like the it's funny, in in in bench lab, which is the the sim lab that we work in with the kids, they they're like, like I did I'm not good at this or like I I did this, it's not my best one, I've done a better one. They like wanna tell me that they've done well before or like they've done a better one before. They think that it they wanna show me that they have the skill set. And I'm like, listen, like I know you're no Picasso.

40:23Dr. Jim Arnold Yeah. Yeah.

40:31Ellie Halabian Like I don't expect you to be Picasso. You just started last week. Like, you know what I mean? I'm not a Picasso by any means. So like it's okay. I literally s tell them that. I like I you're not a Picasso and that's okay. but I'm like, we're gonna learn it together. So I sit down with them, I'm I imitate it for them and or I draw it out for them so that they understand and they get the perception of what it should look like. 'Cause as long as a lot of it is like we don't know what what we don't know. So if we don't know what it's supposed to look like, how can you recreate it?

40:31Dr. Jim Arnold Right. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

41:01Ellie Halabian And so they need to start to learn what it should be or what normal looks like or what a class two looks like so that they can start to recreate it. And I try to d tell them to do it as calmly, like even if they don't finish within the class, I'm like, It's okay, you have next week. I'm not in a rush. I'll be here, you know?

41:16Dr. Jim Arnold Yeah. Well that's such valuable perspective. you know, especially when you're insecure and you want, you know, you want to impress everybody and you want it to be perfect because as a general rule, you go to dental school, to your point, I mean, it's so competitive. It's competitive to get in and then when you're in it's competitive and everything else. And so when you're a high achiever and you're used to doing, you know, a good job at everything you do, it's very humbling to go in there and not be able to do it immediately.

41:30Ellie Halabian Mm-hmm. absolutely. And I think a lot of a lot of it is go getting into dental school is just being a good student. Up until that point, all you had to do was study. You didn't really have to show any clinical skills. So you don't even know where you like where you s where you're starting from, right? Like people don't even think about that. so then you're here all of a sudden now you have to add on the second element of like hands on, right? And and then it it freaks the kids out because up until now they've been really good at the one thing, but they've never actually tried the second thing.

41:50Dr. Jim Arnold Mm-hmm. Yeah, right. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

42:14Ellie Halabian And I just I just try to tell them like it's okay, it'll come with time. And I'm like, you know what? The first person in the class and the last person in the class are both gonna be called doctor. It's fine.

42:23Dr. Jim Arnold Mm-hmm. That's right. Absolutely. And and you know, some of the best dentists who came out of my class, you know, graduated near the bottom of the class, you know. They maybe weren't great didactically, but they had great hand hand eye skills and you know, great relationship building skills. And at the end of the day, you know, you get out there and and that's kind of what it's all about. You know, are you able to to relate to patients? Are you able to communicate effectively?

42:39Ellie Halabian Yeah. A hundred percent. Like who remembers what biochemistry was? I don't do

42:51Dr. Jim Arnold my God. Yeah. You you think about that in all the classes that we took and all of the hours we spent on stuff that we're literally never, ever, ever gonna use in practice. Wait, isn't that important to you? Like on Monday morning, Krebs cycle? Jeez. Yeah, you know, honestly, I I became convinced, Ellie, that it was really just about paying our dues. You know, it's like, all right, how much shit can you put up with for the next four years?

43:01Ellie Halabian Can I tell you the crep cycle? No. Crab cycle, yeah. my god.

43:19Dr. Jim Arnold And, you know, do what we had to do and then you can join the club kind of thing.

43:24Ellie Halabian Yeah. Yeah. We're just paying our dues and I'm still paying my dues.

43:27Dr. Jim Arnold Does it ever end though? I mean, I'm thirty years out and I still feel like I'm doing it in different ways for sure.

43:34Ellie Halabian You know, yeah, I don't think it is. I think that's just what we call life, right?

43:37Dr. Jim Arnold Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. So, you know, through the Te T Teeth Matter podcast that you've been doing for a few years now, like you've done over eighty interviews. Like what's what's the the what are some of the coolest things that you've learned through these conversations with industry leaders?

43:55Ellie Halabian Well, I've learned a lot. It's been a great way for me to learn from so many people from so many different places with so many different types of backgrounds. But I think the lesson is that we're all just trying and we're all just taking a whack at it and seeing where life takes us. And it's more about no two people have had the same journey. I always thought that I had to

43:59Dr. Jim Arnold Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

44:17Ellie Halabian I had to be the best dentist because the what I saw out there were people doing great dentistry. And it's not to say that they're not doing great dentistry, but it took them a while to get there. I just saw it once we graduate school, that's instantaneous. I you know what I mean? I thought that that should just be me. And then I realized, like, no, there is a whole journey that comes with it where there's a lot of learning that happens after school, which is whether it's CE, whether it's life experience and

44:22Dr. Jim Arnold Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

44:43Ellie Halabian I think that's the biggest takeaway is that no two people will have the same journey and you just have to do what suits you or what feels right for you and listening to that. And I think that's the hardest part is we have a hard time accepting or listening to our gut, and ignoring everything else. Everything else is noise. You can look to people for inspiration, but you can't look at them for comparison.

44:48Dr. Jim Arnold Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Oof, that is so that's such a a great, a great bit of insight. And and those conversations, I mean, they go a long way towards making you like understand that, you know, even in practice, to to look at all these different perspectives, some from dentists, some just from people in the industry who bring a totally different point of view. There's value in that for you as an individual, but it's so great that the rest of the industry has gotten a share in those conversations and and learn from that as well.

45:40Ellie Halabian Yeah, and I think it's my whole goal is to show people that you can do dentistry differently. Not everyone's doing the dentistry the same way. One is more of an entrepreneur, whether they start their own practice or maybe they s invent something or th you know, i i it one or maybe they went into C P A or it's just there's you can be involved in many different ways or have many different interests, you know? you're not a one in one size fits all. So

45:44Dr. Jim Arnold Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

46:05Ellie Halabian I want to have these conversations very openly and have them candidly as you do. And this way we can learn from each other. Maybe you find a new interest, or maybe like you maybe I'll dabble in this, or maybe it gives you reassurance, but it just helps you realize that the world is everyone's experiencing things and it's not just you who's going through it. So maybe that's a little bit less pressure on you. Yeah.

46:09Dr. Jim Arnold Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm, yeah. No, definitely. You know, in in in all these interviews, like was there one where you got like the most private messages afterward, like where people are just like, my gosh, that's so amazing. Is is there one particular episode like that?

46:42Ellie Halabian I I've gotten messages on all different types of episodes. the recently I did and this was actually a collaboration with Dr. Avi, but he is was he had me on his podcast and that seemed to really resonate with a lot of people. the conversation was about mentorship or me in my first job or me, you know

46:45Dr. Jim Arnold Mm-hmm. Hm, yeah. Uh-huh. Yeah.

47:06Ellie Halabian It was just a lot of my first experiences and that seemed to like really click with a lot of people because a lot of people have gone through it or had a sour taste in their mouth and they're like, y that's happened to me too.

47:09Dr. Jim Arnold Mm-hmm. Mm. Yeah. Well Uvi's a he's a brilliant guy and one of my favorite people in the industry. He's on my he's actually on my faculty for my mastermind. And yeah, yeah. I've gosh, I think I've seen him three times in the past couple of months at different events and whatnot. But but yeah, he asks great questions. He's a great conversationalist and he has such a good following just because of that value that he brings.

47:24Ellie Halabian Yeah. amazing. Yeah. A hundred percent. I agree. And he's such a great guy and and I think he's one of the f pioneers I would say in like social media dentistry. Yeah.

47:48Dr. Jim Arnold Isn't that the truth? You know, like he came onto the scene and I I remember when I first met him, he said, Yeah, man, like I literally posted a video of me talking to the camera every single day for a year. Started out totally uncomfortable. And by the end of the year, it's like, okay, hey, I'm ready to go. And you know, what he had to say really resonated with people, and it's why he got such a following on on various platforms.

48:05Ellie Halabian Yeah. Yeah. And and and he's also like to have retired from clinical dentistry. I think that was shocking for a lot of people to hear because you go through school, you have all these all this debt, but what are you gonna do with the degree that you worked so hard to get? And he just opened up people's minds to what you can do outside of that. So I I commend him for that and and he's a really, really good at what he does.

48:25Dr. Jim Arnold Yeah. Yeah, he really is. w the actually it's funny to talk about him because the first time we ever met, we were at a retreat. There were just four of us at a retreat in Puerto Vallarta. And, you know, in three days with just four people, I mean he has some pretty deep conversations. And that's like kind of the time where he was transitioning into this sort of full time mentorship in the clear liner space. And it's been really fun to see his career take off, you know, since then. So cool.

48:51Ellie Halabian Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, kudos to you, Avi, if you're listening to this.

49:02Dr. Jim Arnold I'll make sure. I'll send him I'll send him this clip at the very least. So, you know, when you when you look at young dentists coming out of school and they're getting all this advice from so many people and like some people may have you know, an agenda for with them and whatnot. what what advice do you hear that young dentists get that that you just don't actually agree with? You know, being a relatively new dentist yourself, like what's the worst advice you've got?

49:31Ellie Halabian What's the worst advice I've gotten? Wow. I actually

49:37Dr. Jim Arnold Or is there just something that you hear a lot that's just like complete bullshit that you know, people throw out there into the ecosystem too often?

49:47Ellie Halabian I mean I feel like a lot of people say a lot of stupid shit. Is that bad?

49:49Dr. Jim Arnold That's true, isn't it?

49:53Ellie Halabian People say you don't work hard enough. People say that you need to do more. People say that, you know, they say a lot of things. Some people say that I've I've gotten that before where it's like, you need to put in put work faster, do more dentistry. And I'm like, how the fuck do I do more like where there I am not capable of doing more dentistry? and that's no reflection on me. That's just who I am. And I can't be in five rooms at once. If that's not just not physically possible. So

50:06Dr. Jim Arnold Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

50:23Ellie Halabian I guess the advice would be there's a lot of information out there and I and information is can be great, but it it can also lead to analysis paralysis, right? So like don't overthink it. Use the resources to do your research, but no one can tell you what's right for you. You use this research to kind of filter out the do's and don'ts that work for you and then apply it. And if it doesn't work, that's okay too. You go on and it's trial and error. And I think that's what life is. It's like you try something and then we talked about pivoting and you just pivot again. not everything is a like a end all be all. Like nothing is final.

50:55Dr. Jim Arnold Yeah. Mm-hmm. God, that's that's really that's really good advice, you know, and especially with you being so I mean, like I'm so far removed from my first years in dentistry. Sometimes it's hard to remember back to, you know, that feeling, you know, what it was like to come out and have access to so much information and just not know like what to take seriously. you know, what to s sort of discard and all that sort of thing. It ch it comes with experience, I guess.

51:28Ellie Halabian comes with experience, but also like you just have to take action. Like if you if you just think that someone's gonna give you the magic, it's that's not the case. Like you you still have to take action and take responsibility or accountability for your decision. Like it's ultimately your decision. But when you take that decision, if you see that it doesn't work for you then then change your s environment. don't become a victim of it. Don't use it to like blame other people. Just

51:55Dr. Jim Arnold Mm.

51:56Ellie Halabian Just change your ways. and I know it's easier said than done, but you but that's how you have to move through life because that's just what life is. It's a constant pivot. yeah, that's what I've realized in my life. It's like that's how I'm starting to navigate. It's like realizing that not everything is final. Like my decision holds weight, but it doesn't hold that much weight where it's like limiting.

52:05Dr. Jim Arnold Mm. Mm-hmm. Boy, the the accountability piece is huge. I mean, for all of us. And it doesn't really matter what you're talking about in life without some level of accountability, whether it's us holding ourselves accountable or being part of a community where, you know, the conversations and accountability are kind of expectations. And and that takes me into like Teeth Matter hangouts. Tell me about that. Like who's involved with that and and how do people join that?

52:43Ellie Halabian So Teeth Matter Hangouts was this idea, it was a concept that I tried to start. I it didn't I'll be honest, it didn't take off as much as I wanted it to. but it was for me just to have like small sessions with people so that they can

52:47Dr. Jim Arnold Mm-hmm.

52:56Ellie Halabian Let's say you have a hard week and at a middle of the week, let's say every Wednesday we get together or every Tuesday we get together and we can talk about like the last week and s and you can share what happened and then I'll I can kind of reassure you, I've gone through the same thing, or maybe I can teach you something that I did that kind of helped with the procedure the next time. So it was a it was a supposed to be an opportunity to help dentists kind of find solutions. Yeah.

53:02Dr. Jim Arnold Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Huh, I love that. I mean, it's such I think it's such a great concept. And it it kind of goes right to, you know, what I'm doing with my luxury dental retreats and mastermind. It's really about having small groups of of like-minded dentists who can kind of share on a level that's hard to share, you know, publicly or in a big group setting and that sort of thing. So that's a that's a beautiful thing that you're creating. And I I don't give up on it. I I love the idea and I think that there's a there's real value in that.

53:48Ellie Halabian Thank you, thanks.

53:50Dr. Jim Arnold No, absolutely. So, you know, obviously now you're a dentist. You've had a a a very unique background and you've had some really cool experiences leading into dental school and even coming out of dental school. But do you ever still question, you know, whether or not like you're building the career that that you want?

54:09Ellie Halabian All the time, all the time. I'm trying to figure out what I want my life to look like. Like now that I have this profession, now that I have this skill set, how can I leverage it? And how do I want my life to look at 40, at 50, at 60, and how involved I want to be in dentistry? I think dentistry is a vehicle to something bigger.

54:10Dr. Jim Arnold Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

54:36Ellie Halabian I don't think it has to be my I don't have to commit to it nine to five or nine to six for the rest of my life. so that's what I'm trying to figure out. 'Cause I have so many different interests, you know, I have and I wanna be able to explore that and use dentistry to to to open up those doors for me.

54:36Dr. Jim Arnold Mm-hmm. Mm. that's that's cool. I I I love that. you know, I mentioned Dr. Arun Garg earlier, you he's an oral surgeon in Miami and he's trained thirty thousand dentists to place implants and he's written twenty-one textbooks and but beyond all of that, and beyond I think he has seven dental education companies, he's probably got fifty fifty other businesses outside of dentistry, from restaurants to hotels and all kinds of other things. And yeah, actually at our Santorini retreat coming up in October. he's really gonna focus on exactly what you're talking about. Is like using dentistry as the springboard to all of these other opportunities out there in the world, you know, either inside or outside of the industry, because that's what he's done over the last twenty or thirty years.

55:40Ellie Halabian that's so cool. I l I think that would be an incredible conversation to have because for me, my vision is to have some kind of freedom in life. I told you I like adventure, I like flexibility, I like fluidity, and I wanna have an opportunity to live a life that's comfortable, to be able to provide for a family, to leave some kind of legacy.

55:47Dr. Jim Arnold Mm-hmm.

56:00Ellie Halabian build wealth in different ways. And it's like, okay, how do you use dentistry to do that? And we don't realize that like this skill set is really valued by financial institutions and this can untap or unlock, you know, more money for you that, you know, it it leads to good debt. People think of student debt as bad debt debt, but it leads to some good debt that you can leverage. And so I'm trying to figure out that next step.

56:25Dr. Jim Arnold Mm, yeah. I mean, we're we're all hopefully perpetual learners and we're all on our own separate journeys. No two journeys look looks the same. But but yeah, I'm really excited about that. You know, like I said, we've been friends for a long time. We've had a million conversations along these lines, but I'm looking forward to like five days of like really focused conversation about that because I'm I'm in the same place. You know, I'm developing all these new things and I'm excited about it and it and it's great, but you know.

56:44Ellie Halabian Mm.

56:54Dr. Jim Arnold sometimes just somebody who's been there and done that, that perspective is super, super helpful.

56:59Ellie Halabian absolutely. Especially on a scale like that he has. That would be a very interesting conversation when it comes to like hotels and franchises and this and that. That would be really, really fun to talk about.

57:02Dr. Jim Arnold Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. So, like, obviously, New York City has got to be one of the most expensive cities in the world. I mean, clearly. Because everybody wants to be there. It's all about supply and demand. but like practice ownership in New York City, that's a whole different animal. Like, have you run the numbers on that and is that something that you're interested in down the road?

57:30Ellie Halabian I haven't run the numbers on that, but I think about it because again, talking about what dentistry can do for you, like we said it's a vehicle. I think practice ownership is that vehicle, more so than associateship. And ultimately, even though New York is expensive, there's if you walk down the street on Park Avenue, every door has a doctor like title on it.

57:39Dr. Jim Arnold Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right.

58:00Ellie Halabian So like there's clearly room for everyone. And everybody needs a dentist. Whether you have teeth or you don't have teeth, you'll need a dentist. So the the market is there. It's just a matter of creating your own space and everyone's in their own lane. Like as long as you're you're in your own lane, then you're okay.

58:08Dr. Jim Arnold Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's that's that's so true. We all have our own journey and there's a need. If if there are teeth, there's a need. You got millions of people on that island and so millions of people need a need a good dentist for sure. So

58:35Ellie Halabian Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So so we'll see where it goes. But yes, New York is very expensive. And I question why I'm here but I'm still here.

58:42Dr. Jim Arnold Yeah. Hey, you know, you're you're a native. I don't I don't think you're going anywhere anytime soon. And and that's great. So, you know, over the past few years, you know, out there in practice, you know, doing all these things. I mean, you've been in a lot of different types of practices, you know, from the solo boutique, you know, the practice in Brooklyn, family owned group, all of that kind of stuff. Like, i is one of those models, did you enjoy one of those more than the other ones or like where you are today?

58:52Ellie Halabian Yeah, fortunately or unfortunately. Yeah. the family owned is probably the one that's fit me the best. Because like I mentioned, the I did the fa FQH, even though it's public health and I enjoyed, like I said, going on mission trips and whatnot. It was a a model that didn't serve me. I it burnt me out very quickly. That was my first year of practice where I experienced burned out burnout. So that's that's even why Teeth Matter started because of that experience. So that was out the door for me. then I went as went into like

59:31Dr. Jim Arnold Mm-hmm. Yeah.

59:47Ellie Halabian Medicaid offices, but that was a very similar setting, again, a volume-based setting, and that was not it for me. and then now I'm in a family-owned practice, and that's been nice because there's some fa family values that are carry the carry the office and it gives it a little bit of softness, which is nice, and then a little bit more care when it comes to the way they treat patients. So I've been appreciating that.

59:54Dr. Jim Arnold Mm-hmm. Dr. Jim Arnold (01:00:02.529) Mm-hmm. Ellie Halabian (01:00:15.034) and I'm like I said, I'm I've been here for about a year now. my schedule is steady. I'm I see a lot of new patients, but I also see a lot of patients that have been going there for twenty years. So it's it's nice to have that as well. and I think that's the model that's been a little that has fit me the best, I would say. Dr. Jim Arnold (01:00:34.901) good for you. Yeah, I that's definitely the model that I enjoyed the most because it is very relationship based. And when you have those long, long term relationships with not just a single patient but families, you know, and generations and all that sort of thing. you know, it it's it's kind of a pleasure to go to work and have those kinds of conversations every day with people you feel like you you know. Ellie Halabian (01:00:41.165) Yeah. Ellie Halabian (01:00:46.7) Right. Yeah. Ellie Halabian (01:00:56.276) Exactly. And not only that, when I say that I see patients that have been coming there for twenty years, well that's that's a testament to the the office, the practice owner, the service. so it's nice to be a part of the team or that type of team. Yeah. Dr. Jim Arnold (01:01:07.807) Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So you've seen a few associate contracts over the years, you know, like being in in a a variety of settings like that. Like, how do you like read an associate contract now and how do you know whether it's likely to work or not based upon what you read? Ellie Halabian (01:01:25.118) I will tell you something. I have never had a contract. I the only contract I had was the FQH. And that's a pretty standard contract. Everything else in New York has been, I give you my word that I'm gonna show up to work and that's it. Yeah. Dr. Jim Arnold (01:01:28.458) No kidding. Dr. Jim Arnold (01:01:34.571) Wow. Dr. Jim Arnold (01:01:40.755) That's so interesting. I've never heard anybody like say that before. Ellie Halabian (01:01:45.005) Yeah. I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing. I think it's given me a lot of flexibility. but every office that I've worked at, I've been there for at least a year. Even if I've worked at two offices at a time, they've been for this, you know, like a year out. So it's not like I'm jumping around every few months where I'm not reliable. No, I'm reliable, I'm committed, I've been there for a year plus. and it this way I've got gotten to see different types of offices as we've just talked about. Dr. Jim Arnold (01:01:51.402) Mm-hmm. Dr. Jim Arnold (01:02:04.755) Is it? Dr. Jim Arnold (01:02:08.182) Yeah. Dr. Jim Arnold (01:02:13.888) Mm-hmm. Ellie Halabian (01:02:15.074) and to see what works for me and if I see something that works better then I'm shifting over to the other thing, you know? but surprisingly I've never had a contract. I've been very lucky. Dr. Jim Arnold (01:02:20.063) Mm-hmm. Dr. Jim Arnold (01:02:24.673) Huh. That's that's really cool. You know, and I will say, I had a few practices and I had quite a few associates and we we we always started with one, but but honestly, like after that it did sort of evolve into just a handshake agreement, you know, after that first year to where we all just got along well and we were on the same page. And if there were any issues, they were just things that we sat down and talked about. So I like that. It's really refreshing actually. Ellie Halabian (01:02:39.491) Yeah. Ellie Halabian (01:02:47.34) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I'm lucky. So I I don't I think in New York that's pretty common to be honest. a no contract. I don't think people I think there's just so much turnover. There's so many offices and there's so much turnover that people don't want to be s stuck. We're b we're all dating each other for a little bit to see if it actually works. And then and then if it if it's works then I think that people just stay because of loyalty. Dr. Jim Arnold (01:02:54.645) Mm-hmm. Dr. Jim Arnold (01:02:59.264) Mm-hmm. Dr. Jim Arnold (01:03:06.975) Yeah. Dr. Jim Arnold (01:03:12.147) Yeah, yeah, that's that's really nice actually. So, you know, you and I both know one of the biggest issues for kids coming out of dental school now is just the crushing debt. So, you know, when you meet a young dentist who comes out with four hundred thousand in debt, like I mean, what what kind of advice do you have for them? Ellie Halabian (01:03:31.454) I tell them that they have to change their relationship with money. and that's something that I'm actively working on. It's changing my relationship with money. If I if I focus on that four hundred thousand dollars, then I'm gonna be changed changed to that that debt and feel like nothing is ever enough or w I'm gonna be rushing to pay it off and I'll lose focus on on other things. I think like I said, that debt is good debt. It's not bad debt. It has led to a skill set that other people value and you are supposed to leverage that to make more money. I've talked to many people on the podcast because this was one of my worries, is like, how am I gonna pay off those loans? And Dr. Jim Arnold (01:04:09.813) Mm-hmm. Ellie Halabian (01:04:10.516) CEs are expensive. So how do I pay like how do I make all of this happen for me? And they're like, you just have to change your relationship to money. Like you have to understand that money comes and money goes and and people are in debt, but then they'll maybe open up a practice and within a year of opening up the practice they're able to pay off all the debt or maybe half the debt, you know? And then there's relief in that. so I'm just hopeful that one day I will also pay off my debt. Dr. Jim Arnold (01:04:19.947) Mm. Dr. Jim Arnold (01:04:37.739) Ha ha ha Ellie Halabian (01:04:40.108) I I don't worry about honestly I don't worry about it on a day to day. I'm not gonna let that take over my life or my experiences or what I w want to invest in. Yeah. Dr. Jim Arnold (01:04:42.986) Yeah. Dr. Jim Arnold (01:04:48.117) Good for you. You know, I think I think that's great because I I do think that some people look at it differently. they look at it as this overwhelming thing to just kind of endure. But you know, everybody pays it off eventually. You know, it took I mean, honestly, it probably took me twenty years to pay mine off and and it's okay because as a general rule, it's the the lowest interest rate debt you'll ever have. Ellie Halabian (01:05:11.65) Right. And I think the f the fear of paying it off is a scarcity mindset. You can't think that way. It's so limiting. and and you have to be a little bit more you have to think more like in abundance. Otherwise you'll never get you'll never even pay the debt off. Dr. Jim Arnold (01:05:17.781) Mm-hmm. Dr. Jim Arnold (01:05:28.081) Mm-hmm. Yeah, well good. So if you look at dentists, you know, coming up behind you now, you know, like what what would you like a dentist f five years behind you to have coming into their career that maybe you didn't have? Ellie Halabian (01:05:44.191) I would say look for mentorship. Mentorship is hard to find. I think you need a clinical mentor. I think you need a life mentor. I think so basically you want someone who can teach you the clinical skills, but the person who's teaching you the clinical skills might not have the lifestyle that you want. Then you have to s have somebody who has a life that you want to kind of help you move through the next few steps to get a little bit closer to where you want to be. I didn't I don't think mentorship is easy to find. I think it's very hard to build those connections. And I think you should start in school. that would be my advice. Dr. Jim Arnold (01:06:20.961) Mm-hmm. Dr. Jim Arnold (01:06:24.757) Think is good advice. I mean, I think that so often when we're going through school, we're so overwhelmed with just, you know, getting everything done from day to day, week to week, that we don't even think outside of school. And so I think that's that's really good advice for dental students in particular to really start that that learning and growth process you know, before they even graduate. Ellie Halabian (01:06:46.39) Yeah, whether it's like they wanna learn clinically or they wanna learn from a a one of their faculty who has a practice, maybe learn about practice ownership through them, or in the business jargon, each person who is senior to you can be a useful resource. So just use them, not use them, but pick their brains and build those relationships. Ultimately I think everything in life, as we talked about earlier in the podcast, is relationships. and they go a long way. It's yeah. Dr. Jim Arnold (01:06:54.432) Mm-hmm. Dr. Jim Arnold (01:07:10.293) Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. Dr. Jim Arnold (01:07:15.423) Yeah. And I love one of the points you just made a second ago about you know, not nobody necessarily has all the answers, but you know, if there are things that you want to learn, go to the people who you see as doing those things well. And you know, that I I I talk about this all the time, but at one point early in my career I had 17 mentors and I literally had different things that I was trying to learn from each of them because I saw them as experts in two or maybe one or two or three specific things, but not necessarily an expert in all of the things. And I found that I mean it it took me a little while to find them, but once I did, I I found that to be super helpful. Ellie Halabian (01:07:44.428) Yeah. Ellie Halabian (01:07:55.137) Yeah. And I think a lot of people are like afraid to ask someone to be their mentor. Like it's an awkward conversation. Maybe it's a natural build. But if you someone if you're trying to build a relationship and it the relationship is seamless, well then that just naturally gr gravitates into that kind of dynamic. But if you feel like you need to ask someone, it's okay to just ask someone like, Can I pick your brain from time to time? Like, you know, that's okay too. Dr. Jim Arnold (01:08:03.657) Mm-hmm. Dr. Jim Arnold (01:08:18.175) Yeah. And most of us are happy to do that because we had our own mentors, you know, like people who poured themselves into us to make our lives and careers better. And, you know, how do you pay them back? You you pay it forward to you know, people who can can use your, you know, kind of perspective and expertise. So well, hey Ellie, it's been great. You know, I really enjoyed our conversation last year and it's it's cool now a year later to follow up and Ellie Halabian (01:08:36.078) Yeah. Dr. Jim Arnold (01:08:45.498) get to know you a little bit. I I really appreciate you just being so open and sharing so much with with all the listeners. Ellie Halabian (01:08:51.844) this was so much fun. You asked some questions that no one's ever asked me before. So thank you for that. I d I always enjoy talking to you. You you are so easy to talk to. so thanks for having me on. Dr. Jim Arnold (01:09:03.795) No, it's it's really my pleasure. And you know, anybody who enjoyed this conversation, check Ellie out. Teeth Matter Podcast is on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, and she's very approachable. So you know, reach out to her through social media. She's pretty active there as well. So thanks again for the conversation. and here here's what I'm really taking from this, Ellie. You know, your career didn't happen by accident. it got built one decision at a time. Well, maybe it was kind of an accident, actually. It wasn't all intentional. But you know, our our journeys That's right. Everything happens for a reason and it's put you in a great position now to you know, really be not only in a great place for you personally, but to be a a I think a real guiding light to a lot of other dentists out there. So thanks for sharing all of that. And Ellie Halabian (01:09:33.943) Maybe maybe. Yeah. Yeah, maybe. We're here. Dr. Jim Arnold (01:09:58.036) Anybody listening today, if this made you think differently about your own career in some way, please send this conversation to another dentist who needs to hear it. Thanks again. Have a great day. Ellie Halabian (01:10:07.855) Thank you.