You’re Financing Insurance

0:00I'm your host, doctor Jim Arnold, and I am particularly excited about my guest today. She is someone who doesn't just talk about the future of health care. She's actively building it. Toby Basetti is the founder and CEO of DentalFind, an AI powered platform rethinking how patients access care and how dental practices grow beyond traditional insurance models. She's a trained mathematician. She is a machine learning engineer who's built billion dollar systems in fintech and the founder of People in Color in Dental. But what makes Toby truly different is not her resume, it's how she sees problems. She doesn't optimize broken systems. She just redesigns them. This conversation goes far beyond AI, beyond dentistry, and into how hard problems actually get solved. So, hey, let's get into it.

0:51How are doing, Toby? I'm great. Thanks for having me, doctor Arnold. No. My gosh. Absolutely. I'm thrilled. Toby and I just met, last month at the Greater New York Dental Meeting. She was there with, Fred Joyle, and, I got a chance to chat with her and hear about some of the cool things she's doing. And so I'm super excited to have her on the show. And and she was kind enough to invite me to be on her advisory board for DentalFind, which is awesome. And we'll we'll talk about that a little bit today too. But, hey, you know, before we jump into AI, though, what what's something that would surprise people about you? Something that they don't know that just they, you know, blow their mind.

1:35I'm bilingual and an immigrant. Really? That would be shocking. Yeah. Okay. What what's your other language? Yoruba. Oh, yeah. I speak Yoruba too. It's it's been a a hobby of mine for quite while. No kidding. Where now where is Yerba originated? From Nigeria. Oh, okay. So you don't believe me. You don't believe that I actually know Yerba? Alright. You're right. So you're you're like a a mathematician, an engineer. You do all this, like, super like, all this stuff that really smart people do. You know? And when you were a kid, what were you naturally obsessed with fixing or organizing or improving way before you had the language for what you do now? Because you you don't just happen upon this accidentally. There there was something there in your childhood that led you in this direction.

2:35Yeah. I've always been, like, really adventurous, like, really curious and really into, like, science and outer space and science fiction, reading. So, like, I was just somewhere else when I was a kid. Like, I was either physically somewhere else just being, like, a terror to my just, like, running around, like, just, like, just off the walls or, like, just really engrossed in a book and, like, my imagination was just, like, just vacationing elsewhere mentally. That's awesome. So, hey, I didn't ask. How old were you when you immigrated to The US? I was four. Okay. Did you already speak English, or did you have to learn English when you got here? No. English is my first language. Yeah. Okay. Oh, that's that's nice. I already spoke English.

3:38Alright. And and now Yorba, how how often do you get to speak it? Not that often, unfortunately. As you can imagine, there's not a lot of Yorba speakers in The US. So it's really when I'm around family. And there are some, like, organizations that I'm a part of so that so there even even then, like, Nigeria has so many ethnic groups. So even if I need another Nigerian person, they don't necessarily speak Yoruba. So, yeah, just something. Is English the official language of Nigeria because of all the different dialects? Okay. Yeah. India is like that. India's got, like, 20 languages or something like that. And when I went and taught there two years in a row, and everybody spoke English. And I I was shocked that it was, you know, the actual national language, but it makes sense.

4:32You know? If you if if you got 20 different languages And also the person we were colonized by. So we were colonized by the British, and they speak. Right. Well, that makes sense. But India was also colonized by the same So, you know, I wanna talk about your time at Penn. You studied pure mathematics at Penn, which is a pretty good school, I've heard. And that's a discipline built on proof and rigor. What did that teach you about truth and problem solving that still guides how you think today? Oh my goodness. Yeah. So a lot of pure math is writing proofs. And so, like, the process of proving something is very nuanced and, like, a lot of times you might not really even know if something is true.

5:25You're just trying to figure out if it is. And as a student, though, the nice thing is that you are told that this is true. So all you have to do is prove it. At least you you don't have to figure out it's it's true. You just have to prove it's true. So, yeah, like, that idea of, like, exploring different path to see if logically it can lead you. And sometimes you just have to kind of have, like, a brute force approach too sometimes. Mhmm. Or and and then sometimes there's, like, something more elegant where you can just say, like, okay. Like, I know there's a contradiction. And so, like, because of a contradiction that that kind of, like, leads to everything else, like the inverse, you can kinda work backwards.

6:17So there's just that idea of having different approaches of looking at a problem and then just, like, sort of chewing on a problem over a few days and kinda just, like, randomly sometimes, like, just relaxing and instead of just, like, banging your head against Do you ever do you ever solve solve a problem while you're sleeping and wake up with the answer? Yeah. That's the kind of thing I'm talking about. Like, instead of, like, forcing yourself or, like, stressing out, just, like, relaxing and letting some days pass. And then, like, the most random moment, then you'll have some clarity. And it could be, like, yeah, like you said, just waking up. It could be, you know, you're taking a shower. You're taking a walk. Isn't that amazing just how our subconscious works and when we're not even aware, and it it's doing that sort of routine.

7:06You know, it it I was I was a math guy, you know, growing up. That was my favorite subject. I you gotta get seven eighty on my SAT and passed out of a bunch of stuff and really loved it. But then it got into stuff that didn't feel like math anymore. Like, what you're studying, I mean, would have just blown my mind. And I was I was way too lazy to, you know, actually figure that sort of thing out. So, you know, mad respect for you to you for for doing all of that. But Thank you. Yeah. Absolutely. So you were building large scale machine learning systems in fintech. It was a high status, high impact, very safe, probably. What was the moment when staying felt more uncomfortable than leaving?

7:49Wow. That's a really great question. I was just bored. So kinda going back to, like, my childhood, like, I'm a very or I was very rambunctious, and there's still a lot of that today where I'm kinda just someone who's, like, a mover and shaker and, like, my mind needs a lot to be engaged, like, physically as well. I'm kinda just I'm just running around, and that's like a natural state of being for me. So, kind of going back to your question, like, mentally, I had reached the ceiling of what I could do at Capital One, which is I don't know. Maybe I should take the, like, sensor out the shirt or something of my my sweatshirt. So You don't work there anymore. You're fine. I don't know.

8:37I don't I'm I I don't want anything I say to be taken. This is my personal opinion, so I'm just gonna put this disclaimer out here. This does not reflect Capital One or or anything like that. This is just Toby's personal Do you just get restless? Like, just a little bored kind of doing the same thing for a long time, and it was just time for a change? A mixture of that. So what happened was that, like, I had worked in different parts of a company over the almost three years that I was there. And, like, the credit card part of the business was, like, the meatiest part. That's where Capital One makes the bulk of their money. And so after having, a, like, manage some folks, so kinda just, like, exploring my like, building up my professional expertise, or just, like, that kind of leadership skill sets and then went through some leadership programs as well.

9:41And really thankful for the investment that Capital One made in that, my professional development. And then, like, technically, was speaking at a lot of conferences and traveling and and doing and, again, you know, thankful for Capital One's investment in that and then had a number of patents. So, like, once you've done all that like, I was even teaching, like, tech colleges, like, internally teaching other engineers. Engineers. So, like, I did all so I was like, there's nothing more for me Yeah. Here. Yeah. You covered all the bases. You know, I have a good friend who he got out of dental school. He went straight into corporate dentistry, you know, twenty nine, almost thirty years ago. And same thing. He, like, maxed out. Like, he did everything he could possibly do until he was sort of managing a few offices, and he was at the top of the pay scale and all this kind of stuff.

10:35And it was kind of the same thing. He's like, man, I've I've done everything over the last four or five years, and it's time. It's time to go do my own thing, be an entrepreneur. And have you always felt like have you always been a little entrepreneurial? Like, when you were a kid, did you have, like, lemonade stands and sell cookies and stuff like that? So I was entrepreneurial, like, kind of in the sense of while I was capital while I was at Capital One. Like, there are a lot of different things I was seeing, and I was always, like, proposing different things. And sometimes most times, actually, they oh, it's so it wasn't it wasn't just you know, corporations aren't necessarily, like, the environment for, like, random things, and they don't always align even.

11:24And so what I was thinking about was in health care even though I did have a lot of things that were more financial based or finance based. So, no, like, I wasn't this it shocked me as well in terms of, like, me becoming an entrepreneur. Like, it wasn't something that I growing up was like, yeah. I'm going to be a business person. It was more of just like, I'm a tinkerer. I'm an adventurer. I'm very curious about a lot of different things, and I have an active mind. And so once I get bored, then, like so this was just me being an entrepreneur was just the evolution of that. My adulthood was like, okay. I've done the corporate life, and now I'm Yeah. You know, a math out something new.

12:09Yeah. And the something new was like, oh, okay. In technology, building this like, solving this problem that can help a lot of other people in health care that I have experienced for myself, a problem I've experienced for myself. Well, you know, I wanna get into that a little bit. You know, before you started DentalFind, you built in health care transparency more broadly, you know, in the industry. So what did that earlier chapter teach you about health care that most people just don't really understand? So I guess it would be the fact that in general with health care, like, paying out of pocket can often save people money. And Mhmm. If you put yourself in the provider's shoes, shoes, like, why would they want to essentially offer the insurer a loan that's thirty days, ninety days without interest?

13:05Like Yeah. Basically, the insurer has this time period to pay back the provider. And, like, oftentimes, these rates are really paltry anyway. So if you're in the situation where the insurance isn't gonna cover this anyways or the the network doesn't, like, the provider isn't in network or doesn't, like Yeah. So maybe it's, like, aligners or a white beam or Mhmm. There's all of these different, like, more concierge even outside of, like, dentistry concierge procedures. Yeah. Plastic surgery. Right? A lot of cosmetic stuff. And so, yeah, like, just paying out of pocket, like, from the provider perspective, that's money now. That's cash now that they're gonna get from you as the patient. So often times you can save, you know, just by paying cash instead of trying to go through your insurance.

14:09You know, I was a fee for service dentist my entire career, and I always said that I would rather sell used cars than discount my services 50% because, you know, 50% is I mean, that's I I would have lost money on a lot of things. And so it it was nice to do that and be very relationship based. And it seems like dental finds it kind of creates those kinds of opportunities. You know? Especially when like you said, there are a lot of things that insurance isn't going to pay for anyway. And so those are going to be cash patients, and those are going to be cash procedures. So it makes makes a lot of sense. Yeah. So I know you you've told the story about being quoted thousands of dollars for a crown even though you had insurance.

14:53You know, what what shocked you more? What was more disappointing? Just the the the actual amount of money or the lack of clarity around the the billing of that? It was really just the lack of clarity. It was I mean, once you know the sort of landscape of implants, it's like that's just what the price is. So Mhmm. I mean, if if that's how much it costs, if that's a fair price, you know, of course, there's probably some kind of, like, spectrum, but more range, but more or less, it's like, you know, regardless where you go, it's still gonna be a hefty price tag for an implant. Yeah. Absolutely. It's just a matter of having that education. And, like, in terms of any consumer experience, just setting expectations and being upfront is always appreciated.

15:44And consumers are willing to pay for things that they want. They just want it to be a nice experience. And so It's almost like you read my newsletter this morning. It was all about the patient experience, actually. And, you know, so so often, it's not about the actual work, the actual care. It's about having things go smoothly and be as frictionless as possible. And a lot of times, that comes down to to the payment. You know? Sometimes it's an uncomfortable conversation in the office. But if there's transparency, then everybody's on the same page, and you're less likely to have those kinds of issues. Exactly. And when you just have options, like, even if it is a hefty price tag, once you realize that and, you know, you're saying, like, oh, okay.

16:33Well, can I finance it? You're problem solving. Yeah. And having tools to be able to make that friction go away for the patient so that the dentist can get paid what they're worth and not have to, like, you know, typhoon off 50% Yeah. To the the insurance or to whatever. And, you know, of course, there are other expenses, right, which totally makes sense that eat up into the the profit. But at the end of the day, it's like just having those options for the patient to make it easy for them to make that purchasing decision, that's what's most important. Yeah. The more barriers we could remove to saying yes, the better. And, and that's what's the beauty of your system where it matches dentists with patients, with cash patients.

17:24I mean, everybody wins in that scenario. So, you know, a situation like yours, the crown situation, you know, a lot of people would have just complained and then kinda moved on. What made you think that this isn't just broken? This this is a system problem that I can actually solve. I mean, that's pretty audacious to, like, experience that and just be like, you know what? I'm gonna fix this. That's that's wild. Who does that? It's amazing. Yeah. So firstly, just that nature in me in terms of, like, growing up, I've always been, like like, the fact that I am rambunctious and high energy and just always, like, wanting to do more, that kind of just translated into this was just this was just like another adventure.

18:12Yeah. Right. Right. I can see that. Just kinda wanna go, why not? Let's see it. You know? Let's I'm just out here having fun. Like and, like, it's a technology thing too. It's not like it's a completely unknown space for me. It was like, oh, well, I've created technology to help people avoid surprise bills in this space of credit cards and, you know, the financial realm. And so, like, I have those basic skill sets to build technology around this in the health care space to help patients and also help providers and dentists. And so I honestly wasn't necessarily like, oh, yeah. 100%. Like, I can definitely, like, solve this. I wasn't necessarily feeling like, you know, a 100%, like because there's things like, I knew there are things I didn't know.

19:04Like, I'm not a dentist. I don't know any people in the dental world. You know? So I was just kinda it was just more of like I know I have the basic skill sets, and I'm very passionate about this problem. Yeah. And so, like, as I go through this and I start working, I can learn and iterate it to eventually like, that's I don't know. I think it's a program or mindset too. Like, oftentimes, you are just kinda, like, iterating to a solution anyways. So Well, it's it's so impressive. I mean, to just, like, go into a totally new industry without knowing anybody and just, like, start solving the problem and creating something that's so unique in the industry. I mean, hat hats off to you.

19:43That that takes, you know, not only incredible creativity, but a work ethic that, not many people have. So Thank you. Great job. One more thing just business wise. It wasn't, like, completely a fool's errand even though I wasn't, like, a 110, like, I'm going there's gonna be a slam dunk and super easy or anything like that. Yeah. There was a lot of, like, business training and research that I did do about the market and the space and talking to other entrepreneurs. So and, like, the training I got at Wharton helped with that as well. So I will just say that. Like, that that also helped with my confidence in doing this. Oh, that's that's great. That's great. What a cool process for you. So, you know, as we discussed, DentalFind serves two groups at once.

20:29Patients who are seeking transparency and, dentists who are seeking predictable high quality demand. So when did you realize that these weren't, like, competing interests? Because a lot of people would look at that and say they were competing interests, but you figured out a way to kinda bridge them and bring them together. Yeah. Yeah. I I from the be I don't know. It was just that part, I think, for me was always crystal clear. And maybe it was because I also worked in the health care industry before even though I'm not, like, a health care provider myself as a clinician. But as a engineer, like, my skill sets are industry agnostic. So I had worked at Cerner, for example, which is an EHR electronic health record company that was Oh, okay.

21:15Acquired by Oracle recently ish. And so, like, I've worked at other EMR or electronic medical records. So that's the analogous of a PMS in the dental space before I worked at Cerner. So and I'd always had a pretty big interest. I was actually also premed in undergrad. Wow. You you are definitely, definitely, well well rounded. I mean, jeez. Did you just love all the classes you were taking and they just couldn't decide which one you loved the most? I I did end up deciding because I did decide to go into, like, the engineering space. But, yeah, I'd always I always have, like, a myriad of interests, but at the same time, health care so I come from a family of health care providers as well.

22:12Mhmm. Like, my dad, my older sister, my brother-in-law. So I I think a lot of things were maybe more intuitive to me in terms of understanding the health care landscape landscape despite not being a health care professional. Sense. You know, it's amazing just some of those conversations that you have at the dinner table that, you know, sort of sink in and, you know, over the years and then your own experiences and other things that you read and see, you know, it all becomes, you know, us over time. And your the dinner table conversation has a huge impact on our our own development. And sometimes we didn't even know where we found found these, like, little nuggets of, you know, knowledge or intuition or whatever, but sounds like you got that from your dad.

22:59Yeah. A little bit of everything. Like, I studied a lot of public health as well while I was an undergrad, took some public health classes and had Hopkins. Like, I don't know. There's just a wealth of random health care knowledge that I have, and it just coalesced at a point. So with dental find, you know, for somebody who's hearing about it for the first time, how do you explain how do you describe exactly what it does without using a bunch of tech techno jargon? Yeah. I would just say it's a marketplace for shopping for dental care. So, you know, it helps dentists acquire these patients who want just transparency and and want to be able to directly connect to the dentist and shop for care with them.

23:49Nice. And from the dentist standpoint, how does the dentist interact with with this with the software? So do your yeah. I guess, let me just do a quick screen share because, I mean, I'm sure there are viewers who just listen to this podcast. So for the people who can also watch, I'll do a little demo for them. Sure. And so, basically, dentists have the ability to easily just create a listing on dental find. So we have a number of featured dentists. You can see my screen right now. Right? Yes. Okay. And, essentially, just creating a username, password. We do have these discount plans for patients as well to increase retention, which is another part of, you know, making sure dentists are doing well and growing their practice, not just acquiring the patient, but retaining them.

24:53And then they would be able to create a profile like this, with their picture and, you know, their address, list of their services and the prices. So we're not dictating what you guys should list, right, as dentists or how much you should charge like insurance, you know, often does. Like, we're really putting dentists in the driver's seat to say how much they wanna list their services for and what they wanna list. And then the patients are able to check out for care, and, you know, it could be 3AM when they're doing this. When you guys get back in the office, you can respond to the patient and then accept requests, or reject requests. So, again, really putting the dentist in the driver's seat. There's some analytics we provide as well around how much money they're making through dental find.

25:57Nice. So, yeah, that's pretty much how it works. You know, the patient will get an email once you accept, and then they could schedule online. It's really convenient. That's a what a great tool. I mean, these days, if you can't schedule online, you're falling behind because, patients just again, they want a frictionless experience. I mean, for me, I I rarely pick up my phone and call to get something. It's always it's it's gotta be something I can do digitally because it's it's fast and it's easy, and, you don't necessarily have to interact at a time when you don't want to. So that's that's awesome, Toby. Good job with that. So a lot of dentists think insurance, like, already fills their schedule. So cash pay, they think maybe that's not even worth the effort.

26:47But what's the misconception behind that thinking? Well, some of what you said earlier about, like, having to potentially, like, do without 50% of what you should be charging and, you know, because you're so focused on patient volume, then now you you negotiated this rate that doesn't allow you potentially to even break even, not to have to make a profit. So there's that. And then, you know, there's also just the really poor patient experience that leads to really awkward conversations that dentists potentially have to have in terms of, like, oh, the EOB is wrong, the explanation of benefits. And Yeah. You know, we're no longer in network. And so, actually, we charged you the wrong thing, and you owe us this much money. Or It's it complicates things so much.

27:48And while I said, we were fee for service, we did accept, assignment of benefit. And so, you know, we we would collect what we estimated the patient, you know, owed and but we still had to chase down a lot of money from insurance companies, and and it did create a lot of extra work and a lot of extra stress in the office. So I I think every dentist out there would like to have more cash paying patients because it's easier to get it right away, and there's no kind of trying to chase people down to to pay ultimately. Exactly. Like, everything else in our lives in this modern age that we're living in is very easy, is very convenient. Technology has done that for us.

28:29So if, you know, we've had those experiences when it comes to, like, retail or dining with technologies like or companies like DoorDash and Amazon, why aren't we experiencing that same Mhmm. Convenience when it comes to health care, you know? Yeah. Absolutely. Sometimes you just gotta duplicate genius. And, you know, I I think that there's more and more of that happening now. You know, as as dentists get more, I think, technologically savvy and, you know, see these opportunities to streamline their processes, I think there's it's it's definitely moving in the right direction, especially when you throw in all the AI applications and different things that, just make offices run more efficiently. And that gives you more time with the patient. That gives you more time to build relationships.

29:15That gives you more time perhaps to have another patient. You know? It's it's, it's really a beautiful thing. Exactly. And to be fair, like, there's still that sort of, like, diversity of patients and diversity of dentists, and we're just making it easier for the right dentist to find the right patient. And so everyone has their preferences, their styles, and every dentist has kinda like their niche for the type of patient that is the right fit for them. And so, you know, some dentists are that kind of like, you know, more value Walmart style and some you know, and then the prices are, you know, according to that. And some are Yeah. More of the high end luxury spa, you know, and the price is also you know?

30:05And so yeah. You know, Toby, that's one of the beautiful things about dentistry. There are 50 different ways to run a practice. And, you know, as long as you're doing great care, any of those 50 ways are are just fine as long as it works for you. But not everybody wants to have a high volume practice where they have to see so many patients per hour just to, you know, kinda pay the bills. So that that's why what what you're doing and and fee for service doctors in general, it it's just you have the luxury of setting the fees where you feel they should be, and that tends to give you more time with that patient to get into relationship, which in turn changes the culture, and that patient experience keeps them coming back and then gets them to refer their family and friends to you.

30:52Kind of all the best of the best. Yes. It's definitely a waterfall kind of domino Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Absolutely. And anything you could do to to facilitate that process like a dental find is is awesome. So you you talk a lot about, like, unused chair time as a kind of a hidden problem in dentistry. Why why is that such a blind spot for dentists when it's not a blind spot in other industries? Do you have a theory on that? Blind spot in that dentists don't realize that unused tear time is an issue? Yeah. Or maybe they see that unused chair, but they don't understand, like, how expensive it is. You know, how how, you know, that that opportunity cost. You know, you can't get that time back.

31:35You can't get that that operatory hour back because you're paying for it. Yeah. Don't have a patient in the chair. I'm glad you brought that up. And so my experiences with that talking to dentists is that it's just a sort of lack of business mindset. You know, dentists aren't taught business skills in dental school. They're only taught the clinical skills. And so, you know, they're thrust into this thing where they become a business owner essentially of running a practice, but only know half of the skill set. So, yeah, that naturally, they're not gonna know what they don't know. And so Yeah. You know, last minute cancellations and and that kind of things or just unused chair time is is not gonna ring a bell or resonate as, oh, actually, we need to maximize that, and that's a missed opportunity to make money.

32:35You know, it's so interesting, Toby. You just made a really good point and one that I make frequently. I mean, dental school is hard. I mean, I had semesters with, like, twenty nine credit hours in a semester. I think our low semester is, like, 24. That is a lot of classes. That's a lot of studying. But even with all of those credit hours, they didn't squeeze in business. They didn't squeeze in communication or leadership. Those things are so important to not just running a business, but also to creating culture, also to creating a great work space that retains and, or, I guess, recruits and retains good talent and creates an environment that patients want to visit. I mean, every dentist, you know, stumbles their way through and has some modicum of success, but I have found that mentorship at a very early stage is something that helps a lot of dentists overcome that.

33:27Yeah. A 100%. But, yeah, you you come, I guess, with a little bit more of a business mindset, having come from, you know, kind of fintech. You understand, you know, the numbers, and you understand, you know, if your overhead is $800 an hour, that that chair should be producing probably half of that. So Yeah. And the other thing I will say with regards to, that dentist blind spot is that the nice thing about what we're doing with Dental Fine is that we're helping with that as well. So, you know, it's not just about getting dentists paid what they're worth and, you know, what they want and, you know, getting patients through the door. It's also about the fact that patients are prepaying for their care.

34:21Yes. And so, like, other services that get dentist leads oftentimes don't account for the fact that those leads cancel last minute. Mhmm. And so with us, the fact that the patient's prepaying makes sure that they have skin in the game. They're gonna show up. If they prepaid, they are gonna be there. Exactly. Right. So dentists aren't paying for these sort of empty leads. You know? Like, we're not promising patients, then, whoops, you know, something happens and Yeah. You know? You're gonna have a a very high show rate. And and, you know, something just occurred to me, Toby. Somebody may come in for whitening, but that's an opportunity for the office to win them over. If they come in and they just feel like everybody is on the same page, everybody really cares for them, they're not just another number, that's an opportunity to snag a new patient who might go through a new patient exam and may get a treatment plan.

35:27And so you're creating opportunities for practices and opportunities for patients at the same time, and that's a pretty unique setup, really. Exactly. That's the whole goal is that whatever the patient is initially coming from will likely yield additional treatment or vitrines. Yeah. And so Absolutely. As long as you have a good team and you got your stuff together because you and I both know that any team is only as good as the weakest link. And, you know, if you are not leading them, if you aren't creating a culture where they can thrive and succeed and be happy at the office, then, you know, patients have their antennae up. Like, I mean, they they sense if there is friction in the room or in the office, if there's tension, you know, it does it doesn't go well.

36:18You know? But if if you've got a happy environment where people are are truly glad that they're there and they like the people they're working with, that's the kind of vibe that people want to want to experience. So it's important. Exactly. So those soft skills, that office environment Yeah. To your point, you know, is it's not just about knowing how to drill or the clinical stuff. People really need to be to to feel that, you know, which is why I also talk about just matching people. So, like like, sometimes patients just aren't a fit but for that dentist, and that's okay. You know? Absolutely. That's for sure. You know, what she did before, I mean, you were creating AI systems to protect billions of dollars in the finance industry.

37:06You know, what's the bridge between that kind of fraud detection in banking and access to care in dentistry? Is there a parallel between the two? Is there a bridge that that kind of makes sense to make that kind of a jump? Well, I've done a lot of this idea of, like, protecting revenue or fraud in different companies. Like, at Capital One, it was specifically around what you're saying, which is, like, detecting if there's multiple uses on a on a card. So just abnormalities. Mhmm. At JPMorgan Chase, it was more around, making sure that we were meeting our regulatory requirements. And so, for example, like Monte Carlo simulations to make sure that, we had enough capital in different scenarios to prevent another financial disaster. In terms of the parallels, moving to, like, health care and dental care, it's really that idea of building systems.

38:26And so the things that we're doing at DentalFind is, like, so around data. So we're still looking at, like, the prices of different services, and more of those kind of AI and ML capabilities will be incorporated with time as we mature and as we get more dentists on the platform. So I did kinda high level when I was demoing, show, like, how much money are the dentist making through demo find. So, like, that's a piece of analytics. I didn't touch on this, but also the quality score is an alternative to average stars. That's essentially an AI driven provider, FICO. Okay. Nice. And then, of course, eventually, like, being able to help dentists figure out what pricing makes sense in the future by being able to give them a sense of, like, the average price of that procedure in their area.

39:33So that's just the beginning before making it, like, more live real time where we are really using the demand around Yeah. That service to fill the seats. So, like, if there's, like, a last minute cancellation Mhmm. And someone just got into a ski accident, they they need an implant or whatever, it's an emergency, we're able to dynamically price and accommodate and also the reverse. Like, if someone wants to schedule a cleaning a year from now, being able to dynamically price and and discount that because they're committing so early in advance. Mhmm. That's cool. You know, obviously, there's a ton of hype around AI and dentistry. You know, it seems like there's a new AI company in dentistry popping up every week. You know, every trade show I go to, it's like, oh my gosh.

40:30Now what do you do? And there's so much overlap between all of them and that sort of thing. But from your perspective, what's the difference between AI that just sounds, impressive and AI that actually changes behavior? I mean, I I think it just comes down to, like, what is it actually doing. Right? So, like, I mean, if someone's saying AI, but it's not really having any impact, then I yeah. I feel like it's really easy to, like, see through the fluff. Yeah. Do you see companies like that? Like, when you when you were at the greater New York meeting, I mean, did you walk the exhibit floor and see some companies that you thought, you know what? I don't think it's really doing what they think it's doing.

41:18Well, I think part of the issue is that AI is so broad and, like, the mainstream usage versus, like, practitioners who are actually creating it. Like, the Yeah. Like, the app like, the engineers who are creating these algorithms, these large language models. So sometimes people don't even really know what's AI, so that makes it hard to to, like, diagnose from, like, maybe a commoner or, like, a layman's perspective. To answer your question, like, absolutely. Like, when I was walking around, like, you know, the Stowford, Berger, New York, there were definitely things I was, you know, like, BS, BS. You know? And other things I was like, oh, yeah. You know, I can definitely, you know, see how you would need something, like, heavy, like AI.

42:07Because AI is, like, basically, like a hammer. Like like, not everything requires AI. But if you think about, like, the amount of resources that AI AI, to put some kind of definition for this conversation, what I'm referring to is, like, a lot of the more recent, like, large language models that have come in the form of, like, ChatGPT or Yeah. Gemini or Claude and Yeah. That kind of Perplexity. Now there's Kimi. Kimi, I think, is a a Chinese company that is is similar. And Grok, you know, which is the Elon Musk thing. Right. I started playing around with those a little bit too. So I I love I love the things that you can do with it. It's it's a great tool, but it's not it's not ever gonna be the end all be all because, you know, you sometimes you can lose some of the humanity if you lean into it too much.

43:07But it can also, I think, really, amplify your efficacy in in different things that you do. Yeah. So I would just say that everyone needs to be educated. And, like, if you're someone who is like, what is going on? Like, I'm overwhelmed. I don't know how to, like, discern, like, what's truly AI or what's truly adding value and what truly needs AI from what's not. Like, being on like, listening to your podcast and, like, that's, like, one way of educating yourself about, you know, like, the nuances and going to those conferences, going to those trade shows, and hearing what these vendors have to say Yeah. And just figuring out, like, what problems do I have? And so being able to actually compare the different services that are claiming to speak to that problem, You know, those are all ways of seeing, like, okay.

44:08Well, do I actually really need AI for this, or is there a simpler, cheaper solution? Well and there's so much overlap that it becomes, like, overwhelming. You know? I mean, I I think there are dentists who get two or three different platforms, and there's so much overlap that, you know, they could probably do it all with one platform or, you know, just be selective about the types of things to your point that that they will do. Now for you, what you're doing, I mean, you're kind of in a in a category of your own. I don't know of anybody doing anything even similar to what you're doing. So so that's that's kind of fun for you. You know, you have a a big runway. Now it's just a matter of, you know, max maximizing what what you guys can what you guys can do.

44:51Yeah. I will say that a lot of dentists come to us because of frustration with ZocDoc. So that is something that is similar in a lot of ways. K. And a question if people don't know what Sockdoc is, it's an online tool that helps patients set up appointments. And so oftentimes, the appointments that patients set up are considered a lead, and then the dentist has to pay, like, a $120. Depends on the region you're in Interesting. For that patient lead Mhmm. Only for them to not show up. So it's like, you know, going back to what we said earlier, what we're doing is actually ensuring that there is a payment component of what is happening, and it's not just appointment booking. And then there you know, we could even think about, like, insurance, as you mentioned earlier, as, like, in a way, you know, competitive to dental find in the sense that that's also a channel for dentists to get patients, but it doesn't have that technical component.

46:01And so there's still so much friction involved. Mhmm. And then we could even talk about things like Groupon, which kinda have that similar nature where maybe dentists feel that they're having to discount their rate so much and these patients are turning. So Yeah. We're really at the intersection of solving all of those pain points where, you know, we're getting dentist patients who are high quality, and the dentists are getting paid what they're worth. Yeah. And they're getting paid upfront, which makes all the difference in the world Yeah. For sure. So when you're designing matching and pricing systems, how do you make sure efficiency doesn't, like, introduce bias or unintended consequences? Has have you had any issues with that? Say more. Bias in what sense? Like, what kinds of unintended consequences?

47:00Yeah. You know, I guess because we're matching patients to dentists. And from my perspective, it's all pretty objective. Like Yeah. I mean, the only bias I can think of is what I alluded to earlier in terms of our our provider score Yeah. Which is different than average stars. Mhmm. So How how does that figure? I mean, it's different, but how does it come up with those scores exactly? Yeah. So taking into account things like the number of years they've been practicing, their education, if there's been any fraud or if there's been any reports of negligence or lawsuits. So that's that's part of the the AI that I was Interesting. So it's kinda scouring scouring the Internet and pulling in all of this debt these data points and then kicking out a number.

48:06Wow. Exactly. So, like, from my perspective, it's it's way more objective than something like average stars, which any patient can just wake up one morning and say, this person is a one because they looked at me the wrong way, or this person is a five just because they smiled at me and I was in a good mood. Like, nothing actually really concrete. Okay. So you founded people in of color in dental. At what point did you realize representation in dentistry wasn't just a moral issue, but almost a structural one? Yeah. That's a great question. So going back to, what we discussed earlier, like, I'm not a clinician, and I didn't know anything about the dental space. I didn't know anyone there. But here I am, a newcomer.

49:00Like, I have technology skills, and so I'm like, let me solve from the dental space. What gives me that confidence? Why me? So yeah. Like, as I just started to go to conferences and start talking to people and, like, I got my own dentist on Dental Vine. Oh, cool. I just started making friends slowly and learning what I didn't know and, you know, listening to podcasts and self educating to some degree as well. Of course, you know, not the clinical aspects, but Mhmm. I saw organizations like Women in DSO, like Mhmm. You, Dental Entrepreneurial Women, and I saw how the dental space was creating community for, groups that oftentimes might be overlooked like women. And similarly, I saw organizations like the NDA, the National Dental Association, or HDA, the Hispanic Dental Association, said, which is focused on Native Americans.

50:14And I was starting to understand the landscape, in dentistry for different sorts of kind of special interest groups that well, I don't know if that's the right term, but different different sorts of Niches kind of Right. Which are not necessarily, like, fitting with, like, the sort of major sort of archetype of what maybe a successful professional in the dental space would look like or what what maybe the vast majority look like, you know, in terms of, like, if you look at, like, a lot of the speakers on panels and that kind of thing or, you know, people making most of the decision, they tend to, you know, look a certain kind of way. And so just personally myself, I Yeah. Being a newcomer, I really struggled to find kind of, like, just people I could meet to quickly learn about the industry and quickly get opportunities to move dental find forward.

51:21And so it was in that sort of gap where I was like, okay. Well, yeah, I'm a woman and, like, I see some representation there, but at the same time, I'm also a racial minority. And I would like some community there as well to be able to, you know we all know it's like who you know. Right? That Yeah. Absolutely. Feel. Yep. And so it was finding founding people of color in dental was just a way to be able to make more connections with people and also help other people kind of shortcut the process that I went through where it was really slow and painstaking for me to start building community and making connections and learning. And so as a nonclinician, like, organizations like NDA or HDA or SAID were not accessible to me.

52:16Mhmm. Or at least it didn't seem like it was. And so Yeah. That's why I founded People of Color in Dental because it was bringing professionals together regardless of whether they're a clinician or not. I think that's so I think that's so great. I think in dentistry, one of the biggest problems out there I mean, we we touched on some of the others other things earlier, but I think there are a lot of dentists who are just lonely. They feel like they're out there on an island by themselves. I'm sure that that same concept applies to other people in the dental space, but, you know, having some sort of community. You know, whatever it is, having community is is what really bridges the gap and makes it easier.

52:57You know, when you can talk to other people who are dealing with some of the same challenges, dealing with some of the same frustrations and Yeah. And help one another sort of get over those hurdles. Yeah. I I host an occasional dentist dinner here at my house. You know, I I advertise it because I want anybody who wants to just come and talk to dentists. They're not competing. They're they're collaborating, and they're helping one another and that sort of thing. And I think that anytime you can create opportunities like that, you're doing a great service to the industry. So, yeah, I mean, just keep it up. And I I can't wait to help you in any way that I can as you as you continue to build We love our allies.

53:35So, yeah, people of color and Google is very inclusive. So, you know, that actually goes right to my next question, which is, you know, it's lonely to be an entrepreneur, to be a CEO, to be a leader. And what's been the hardest part of that for you that people just don't see from the outside? Oh, yeah. So I guess getting vulnerable here, really digging deep. You gotta, like, motivate yourself. And sometimes I don't I don't feel like getting up. Right? Because Hey, man. That's the human condition. You know? When you're not punching a time clock and you're the boss, you know, there are days where it's like, oh my god. Do I really need to do this today, or can I do it tomorrow? Exactly.

54:29So Yeah. When you're the boss exactly like you said, there isn't that I mean, some a lot of times people find this annoying, but it's like, oh, my my manager's always breathing down my neck and, you know, like, pestering me. And and you don't you don't have those sorts of, like, someone else sort of supervising you. Right? And, you know, nudging you constantly. So you have to be that self motivator even when you don't feel like it. And what helps me is, like, knowing that, a, if I don't do anything, then, you know, I I don't make any money. Yeah. Yeah. And we don't wanna do anything. I mean, if you wanna eat, you know, if you wanna have electricity, things like that, little things like that.

55:18Know, You you gotta do something to create value. And also just having, like you said, community. That's always really great. Like, whether it's family, other entrepreneurs, you know, advisers like yourself on the board, and just having meaning to what I'm doing because Mhmm. Like, yes, money is a motivator. But at the end of the day, the problem I'm solving is one that I'm really passionate about, and it really just brings so much intangible, invaluable satisfaction and fulfillment to me to know that what I'm doing has meaning. And that's awesome. I mean, that's the way that it should be, like, in whatever your profession is. It's like do the right things, create value for others, and ultimately, the money will follow. And, you know, sometimes as a business owner, it's hard to have that mentality.

56:10You know, you know, if you've got a lot of debt and it's hard you know, you're having a hard time getting something off the ground, you know, sometimes that scarcity mindset can kinda creep its way in there. And, but I I think what how I how I look at that other question, there's so many people who aren't business owners, and they just look at business owners like, oh my god. You've got it so good. You know? Oh, like, I wish I was a business owner and all this kind of stuff. And they have no idea that, like No. I is four seven. This isn't a nine to five job. This is, like, something you take with you everywhere you go, and it never turns off.

56:47It's three hundred and sixty five days a year, and it's a lot of responsibility. And, you know, a lot of people just they they're never gonna get that. And which is fine. That's fine. But as an entrepreneur, you know you know the the price you pay to to succeed. And so much of it does. You just have to, like, motivate yourself. And what I will say for everyone who is thinking about entrepreneurship, because like you said, a lot of people don't know the the real grind, you know, like, but, like, how much you sacrifice with this. Like, whatever you think this is, like because they only see maybe, like, the sexy, glamorous, like, oh, yeah. You're your own boss. Yeah. I don't want I don't want anyone telling me what to do.

57:33Like, I you know, like and they're getting this regular, you know, check every two weeks, you know, and that stability and all of that. And, you know, their loved ones aren't dealing with potentially you, you know, being MIA for god knows how long sometimes and at at, you know, at at their expense. And so Yeah. I would just say whatever you think you're gonna have to sacrifice or whatever amount of whether it's money or time or sanity, ex I mean, mental Sleep. Yeah. All of the above. Like, just maybe double it, triple it, you know, because at least for me, like Yeah. I I didn't realize that it would be as hard as it is. I mean, it's also as super fun and adventurous. At the same time, just disclaimer to everyone who thinks this is just a cakewalk.

58:22Yeah. It's it's much harder. Well, speaking from experience, I pulled another all nighter last night. It's 04:00. I haven't had a nap or anything yet. And, know, those are just the things you do sometimes because you're in the middle of a project and you're in flow. And at least for me, I'm not normal. But when I'm in flow, I just keep going because the thought of, like, going to sleep and, like, losing whatever momentum I have is is just anathema to me. So Yeah. I I have so much admiration for you, doctor Arnold, because Oh, thanks. Especially at your age, like, there are very few people. Like, I think Fred you and Fred are birds of a feather when it who are just, like, not ready to retire, just out here just, you know, still kicking and, you know, you know, like, people half your age or just, like, kicking you know, white.

59:13Just to be clear, I love Fred, and I had a call with him today. I talked to him yesterday also. So I love Fred, but he is about fifteen, twenty years older than me. Just just saying. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So I'm kinda either with the same brush. Date anyone. I'm just saying I'm just saying that that whole sort of range. You know? Oh, man. Like, I know I know Fred is is is significantly older than you. He is amazing. I tell you what, we were on a cruise a couple years ago, Smiles at Sea cruise, and, he went and climbed the rock wall at a time where I I was a lot heavier than I am now, and there's no way I could have climbed that wall.

59:50But he just, like, screwed up it like no big deal. And, you know, I can't wait the next time we're on a cruise. I'm gonna race him. So, you know, we'll just see how that goes down. Hey, babe. What my point is just compared to your peers, doctor Arnold. I don't see a lot of people who are, you know, really go getters, really putting in their all, or even have the energy to be putting their all or even, you know, speaking for myself. Like Mhmm. There's it's it's a very, very, very few people who are kinda, like, made for this kind of Yeah. Lifestyle. You know that the trick is you said it before. It's like being passionate about it. If you really like what you're doing and you really feel like you're making a difference, then sometimes it's not it doesn't even feel like work.

1:00:36You know? You can just, like, keep keep going because you feel so good about what you're doing. Exactly. And when you're working for yourself, that's another thing. You know? Like, if you're if you're working for a corporate entity, you know, there isn't that kinda that same sense of ownership sometimes. You know, not to say you can't have it, but when it's like, man, you know, this is like a $2,000,000,000 corporation and, you know, I get my little paycheck, whatever. But when you're working for yourself, you're working for your family, you're working to keep the lights on or put food on the table, all those kinds of things, there's, you know, a certain level of motivation that perhaps some people don't understand. But Yeah. And with regards to the all nighter thing, I I certainly don't make it a habit, you know, because health is also important, and we we wanna be mindful of our bodies and our health.

1:01:24And it all feeds back into the same thing. At the same time, I definitely can relate with what you're saying. It's like once you're in that flow state, like, it just naturally happens, and you're like, oh my gosh. Like, I didn't sleep, and it's 5AM in the morning, and I figured it'd be so That that was this morning. My wife walked out of the bedroom at 05:03. I'm sitting in my office. She said, you didn't go to bed, did you? I said, no. Like, ugh. Yeah. She's she's she she's told me, I am not proud of you for staying up all night. You need your sleep. I think it just depends on the kind of people I don't know. I I think that there may be other people that aren't, I don't know, nocturnal or whatever.

1:02:04I I think it just depends because I've always been like this, to be honest Yeah. Doctor Arnold. Like, even when I was, like, a kid doing homework, like, I would just be like, once I'm in something, I'm just in it, and then I'm just, up all night. And my dad used to, like, yelling at me, like, why aren't you sleeping? So I think some people maybe just work naturally or, like, maybe they just get their stuff. I don't I don't know what it is, but I've just never been that person who's like, only daytime hours. So, you know, Toby, looking ahead ten years, you know, if dental find is as successful as you want it to be and just continues to grow and all that sort of thing, looking back, like, what what do you want the dental landscape to look like in ten years?

1:02:50What will be unrecognizable from today based upon the work that you're doing now and what you're building? Yes. So in ten years, when dental find is a massive success, I would like the idea of shopping for health care services to be, like, common like, to be, like, just, like, breathing. Like, it's not even, like, odd or abnormal to, like, check out for something like a dental exam or even a filling, like, on an app. Like, that would just be normal. Like, the same way Uber has made getting into a stranger's car, like, I don't even feel that a moment's thought. Like Yeah. It's just like breathing. You know? Like, like, getting an Airbnb and going into a stranger's home for the night. Like Mhmm. That's totally normal now.

1:03:51And so that's what I see in the next ten years is that even beyond dentistry, like, even getting care for your pet, like because there's a lot of surprise bills there as well that people are facing and lack of insurance coverage for those services, expanding to medical, like, you know, getting teledentistry. A lot of people are homebound maybe because they're seniors. Getting a dentist to come to your home, like, it's just super easy. I just Yeah. Go on an app and, you know, if dentists need more, like, work or something and, like, they're just struggling with that or maybe they're a new dental grad, they can just use it. It's so interesting. There's such a access to care issue in certain parts of The US, and then there are parts of The US where the dentists have a hard time finding patients.

1:04:46I feel like they those dentists should be dropped into this area that has this huge need. And I know there are areas that will incentivize, you know, doctors to go and work just because there is such a need and that sort of thing. But, you know, what you're really talking about is a utopia where people can, like, without any friction, schedule their appointments, pay for their appointments, and have it be just so routine that they don't even think about it. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Hey. I you you could be the one to make it happen. I I I have faith in you. So, you know, similar question, and this this is the last one. But when you're much later in life, when you're old like me, for instance, what do you hope your work proves?

1:05:29You're not old. We just went over that. That is the old guy. You're so what do you hope your work proves is possible that people today think isn't? You're solving a problem that maybe some people don't think is possible. What do you hope your work proves is possible? It proves that it's possible for patients to know what they want. And so that doesn't mean that they're diagnosing themselves just because they know that, hey. I have an an ache, but it is possible for us to purchase medical care or health care services the same way we purchase a physical good like a sneaker or like a burger, that it is possible to make that kind of thing shoppable, and that essentially, you know, once the patient is going in for that initial consult or that initial exam and the dentist then diagnosis, like, okay.

1:06:37Yeah. You need a filling or you need a crown or whatever the specific thing is that they can then continue to go back on dental find and get that more complicated service. So, like, that's what I hear a lot with when I tell people about dental finders, like, well, how is a patient gonna know what they need? Like, these are the Certainly gotta be diagnosed, and then they can find a provider. You know? I I mean, obviously, the traditional model is if a patient came in and they needed molar endo on number two, and I'm not gonna do it, I have my endodontist who I work with, and I would refer them to to that endodontist. Now are you seeing, like, in big cities where patients wanna, like, compare the endodontist and, like, choose the one that makes the most sense for them?

1:07:26Is that kind of what you're referring to? A little bit. And what I'm saying is that, yes, I'm I'm not saying patients can diagnose, but I'm saying patients are much smarter than we give them credit for. Like, I was just talking to doctor Fernando Hugo, at NYU who's also, one of our NIH collaborators at their dental school. And, like, we're getting pushed back where, like, when people look at our platform, they're saying, okay. Well, how is a patient gonna know they need a filling? Or but it's like we're not saying the patient knows exactly that they need that. We're saying that the patient knows they need an exam. It's been six months. The patient knows, hey. My teeth are brown. I might need a whitening.

1:08:21The patient knows, hey. My teeth teeth are crooked. I might need it straightened. We need to give patients more credit that they know when they need to see the dentist. And so from there, once they have that initial service that they've booked through dental find, that can lead to, as we've discussed, other opportunities where the dentist then does diagnose and say, yeah, you have this cavity and you need a filling. Well, you know, they say about forty percent of Americans don't go to the dentist on a regular basis, maybe fifty percent even. And so whatever it is that brings them in, that's an opportunity to keep them in. That's a gateway to hopefully better oral health, you know, again, as long as the team is on point and they provide this this feeling of safety, this feeling of familiarity that, you know, patients really appreciate so much.

1:09:09So well, hey, Toby. Thank you so much. It's been a great conversation. You know, I think that the fact that you're building something unique is is really interesting to a lot of people. I mean, I saw you talking with with people in in at Greater New York, and everybody's is really curious about it. And I think I think it's great, and I think that a lot of our listeners will will be interested in learning more. What what's the best way for them to learn more about what you're doing, and what's the best way for them to get in touch with you if they have questions? Yeah. So I'm on LinkedIn. So Toby Bessette, you can search me that way. There's also my email, toby@demofine.com. And people are also free to text if they want.

1:10:00So lots of different ways that people can reach me. In terms of, if they're wanting to know more about DentalFind, we do always offer, a free trial, especially if we're not in the area that, they live or they're based. And so just really being able to follow us on social media, like, you know, we have an Instagram page, Facebook, LinkedIn, wherever they're focused or in, you know, whichever social media is best for them. K. Great. I'm always happy to, like, answer questions. And, you know, as we expand beyond New York to more major metropolitan areas and then eventually, you know, rural and nationwide as as you discussed, we certainly want to keep people posted on on that. Alright. Well, that's very exciting. I think everybody should go, learn more at dentalfind.com.

1:11:05And, you know, again, thank you so much for being here, Toby. Thanks for your time and thanks for what you're doing for our industry. Thanks for having me. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with someone who needs to hear about it. And until next time, keep building something that matters.