He Sold His Practice for $5M. Then He Bought It Back for 8 Cents on the Dollar

0:00Hey. Welcome to the Foundation Dental podcast. I am doctor Jim Arnold, your host, and I am really excited to introduce my guest today. He's one of the most interesting men in dentistry. He is one of the most unique figures in dentistry because he's a clinician, he's an inventor, he's an entrepreneur, a DSO leader, but he is best known for creating the Snap on Smile and reshaping what's possible for general dentists. He's built practices, bought them back, mentored dozens, if not hundreds, actually, and now leads practice development or partnership development for Guardian Dentistry Partners while hosting his podcast, Dentistry Beyond the Numbers. Mark has lived every chapter of the profession, and he brings a perspective you simply can't find anywhere else. I wanna talk about Mark the inventor, the entrepreneur, the clinician, the thought leader, all that good stuff.

0:50But first of all, I wanna talk to Mark, just the the cool guy that he is. So, Mark, man, thanks so much for being here. I appreciate it. Jim, thank you for that. I I really appreciate that. I didn't I don't know who you're talking about, but he sounds like a good guy. He really does. But thank you. Hey, man. Like, I I tell you what. I I've met a lot of interesting people in the dental world, and you and I have just gotten acquainted really over the last six months or so. But it's been a lot of fun. You know? It's one of those deals when we start talking whether we're on a Zoom or in person, we could just go on for hours because I think we're really closely aligned.

1:23You know, I think the sad part for dentists is that we work in a six inch hole or maybe and I'm being exaggeratory. It's a it's a small hole. And when you get out of the office and you realize the the talent and the brain matter Yeah. That's in the people that are moving our industry, the doctor Jim Arnold's, the people that are out there that we see. You know, we always looked at people like Gordon Christensen and Mike it just screams for me, but it shouldn't. Mike, Faran, but, you know, Howard Faran. I'm sorry. But, you know, these are people that just spread and work so hard on educating dentists. And now everybody's doing it, but guys really have to lead the way. And I'm honored to be on somebody that has been doing it and doing it really well and has a great name in the industry.

2:09So, like, I I trusted you. I trust you. Thanks, man. Yeah. I know that sometimes sometimes it's nice to know what people are gonna ask you in advance, but I think that you're the kind of guy who you're just such a great conversationalist that I thought it'd be fun more fun just to have a an authentic organic conversation. And, you know, I I can relate to you in a lot of ways because I have reinvented myself more than once. And I think in the industry, you've maybe reinvented yourself more than just about anybody. And so a lot of people a lot of us know a lot about you, but what's one thing that people in the industry would just be shocked to learn about you?

2:46Like, what what would surprise them about your career or personal life or just something that people would love to hear? Well, first of all, I think that that's an amazing question, and I thank you for it. You know, I've kept my life a little trying to be a little quieter. I haven't gone out much from the practice. I think a lot of my decisions were made for the love and the thought of family. I mean, you know, if you take some of the like, take the Snap on Smile. I wanted to build a business that was second to none. I felt it would help people all over the world. But in the end, I had an amazing practice in New York City, and it made me a lot of money.

3:25Mhmm. And I felt that if I would jeopardize that from my ego or my personal growth in something I believed in, it would really jeopardize my children and my wife. And I didn't wanna be a statistic. I know I'm not talking to anybody. But for me, personally, I did a lot of thought about personal thought, a lot of inner perspective, and and and and really retrospective of what I've started this journey for. And I make a lot of decisions based on that. You know, we have fun. We go out. We meet people. But in the end, you know, it's a balance. And I think it's really important. I love what I do. I love what I do. And my wife knows I love what I do.

4:02Yeah. But it's balance. It's a balance. And that's what people won't realize. Yeah. Oh, that's that's cool, Mark. And, you know, I think everybody struggles to find balance, and I don't know if balance is even truly achievable. I talk about it a lot, but seems like there are always certain things that we tend to focus on at certain kind of seasons during certain seasons of life. You know, we just do the best that we can, I think, to be kind of the best we can in every life category and always wanna be learning, always wanna be growing, always wanna surround ourselves with people who are doing things kind of the right way and and at a high level that helps us sort of elevate our thinking?

4:37And and, you know, Mark, along those lines, you mentioned Snap on Smiles. And, of course, I've got several questions about that because it's such a fascinating story. And one thing I learned in my research of you that I didn't know before was it had an inauspicious beginning. Like, I believe, were in the nursing home with your grandmother and after her dentures had been incinerated somehow Right. And you were carving something in acrylic. And I I gotta know though, like, going from that inauspicious kind of unlikely beginning to when Snap on Smile became this, like, global product, I mean, what was your family really saying? Like, behind the scenes, off camera, what did your family think of this crazy concept? I think they thought I was crazy until until Yeah.

5:20They went commercial. They saw reporters in Italy talking about it. Yeah. Then, you know, it was real I had young kids then, younger kid. Yeah. Young kids. And it was really a great run. But the way it came out having a father, may he rest in peace, in business, who didn't understand the concepts of dentistry. And me being the first dentist professional because everybody is either a lawyer or an MBA, but I was the first health care. And he calls me up and he said, you know, Mark, I need you to stick some teeth in your grandmother's mouth. We got a bar mitzvah. I go, dad. Wow. He stick things in. But after I did carve two roundhouses on her dwindled down, you know, chronically occlusally abraded teeth, I was driving, and I remember saying, oh my god.

6:07I need a flexible composite. Yeah. And that's where a gentleman by the name of Kim Kuch came in. I wanna give a shout out to him. Big help to me. But that's how it came up, you know, and who would have thunk it? But in the end, it helped a lot of elderly people and firmed, and it was a big. It was something of a labor of love, and it's still a labor of love. You'll see. Oh, man. That's that's awesome, Mark. You know, when when you look at this and it's just such a again, such an unlikely beginning, but it's morphed into this sort of global thing that so many thousands of people have benefited from. You know, obviously, you've been asked a million questions about this, but what's one really interesting Snap on Smile story that no interviewer has ever asked you about that you'd like to share?

6:49There's gotta be something cool. Best mouth patient in LA that lost it when the waitress cleaned up the table and took his Snap ons. But the most incredible one was, a young lady from from New York, from Freeport. I'll never forget this. She was an African American black girl, amazing person, such a nice person, educating herself, but she was born with deciduous ankylose teeth. And she she had zero, maybe one or two permanent molars that came in but didn't fully erupt. So we know from us being dentists that the only thing that holds our nose and our chin from touching are our teeth. It's called vertigo dimension. So she came in one day seeing this this egg, and she asked me, can I help her?

7:34And I said, I think I could. And we took the alginates, we took impressions. We mounted a case, and I said, send it. We made her two snap ons. It changed her life. She wrote a new one three years later and then came to me, and she's in some of the literature. Mhmm. She came to me, she said, you won't believe this, doctor Langton. I said, what is it? And she said, I'm getting married, but he doesn't know my teeth are not my teeth. Oh my gosh. She said, what do you mean? He took my Snap ons out, and he raises my smile every day. Oh my god. I said to him, so how can I help? She goes, I wanna come to your office and reveal my teeth, and you can explain to him what's going on and what we can do.

8:17And I had them sit in my office in New York, my private office door closed. Wow. And I explained to him how great and lucky he is to have a woman like this. And I said, but take out your snap ons. And he freaked, and he cried. And I explained to him, but that was the most heart wrenching story because, literally, I brought this woman the love of her life. And it was it was really amazing. But like you said, there are a lot of stories like that. We are planting the hearts of people, and we're helping people. And that made all the difference to me. Wow. You know, Mark, it really underscores the kind of the platform that you've had as a result of that, some of the other things that you've done.

8:55You know, most of us as dentists, you know, we have however many thousands of patients we see over our careers and, you know, we can impact them, we can impact our teams, we can impact their families by extension, I guess. But when you're a teacher or when you create a product that goes globally like yours did, you can have such a bigger impact through other dentists and other providers who are able to provide this service. And I I think that is an incredible legacy, you know? I just I'm really I'm really I guess I'm thrilled to hear this story and to understand what's behind it. As a dentist who used it as a clinician and changed a few lives, You know, it's great to hear sort of straight from the the guy who dreamt it up.

9:35This this came from helping people. And like anything else, we are innately I believe the better that you run your practice, you're a businessman. Yep. And when, you know, when people came calling and and and go the, you know, the Trident Labs, Continental Labs, the Da Vinci Labs came calling and whining and dining me. Yeah. I thought I had something. And and, literally, I was flown to LA. I went to a lakey game. I went to a, you know, a concert. They treated me like unbelievable red hot chili peppers. I mean, I I had a great time. And I'm here deciding, and I went with Trident. And I I a lot of people don't know that, but it was a lot of fun. And it was a great experience to see the world.

10:16So that's what I like. You know, last question I'll ask about this because I have so many other things to ask you. But now when you first started this, I mean, did you have any inkling that this was gonna become a global thing in 60 countries and all that sort of thing? Do you think it was just gonna be sort of a cute side project that, you know, your grandmother would be grateful for and you know? I mean You know, I thought it was really a test of my ability to carve teeth. Went back to Dallas, baby. And it worked alright. I loved it. I didn't think it would global until, you know, until the first camera crew came in. Yes. From a you know, I got a PR firm.

10:51And then when the labs came dancing, I mean, that was something that dentists don't experience. But what that made me experience, and that may have done it, is the world at large in dentistry. I mean, it made me meet and and get to know so many great leaders in our industry that without Snap on, we'd still be a dentist in New York City. Yeah. And that's why I owe it so much. Not the money, not the but it's really the ability for me to see conferences, to sit in lectures. You know, I'm one of those guys that when I get a chance when I speak and there's a lecture, I love hearing colleagues because I always learn something. And I think that's really where it began the educational process of me realizing there's so much out there.

11:32Man, you know, I think you just hit on something really important that a lot of dentists, I I think, sometimes forget. You know, I think well, hell, as humans, I mean, we should always be learning and growing. I mean, I remember my wife used to tell me when we were in our early thirties, you know, as soon as you stop growing, you start dying. And I think that what something that separates you and others from maybe just a lot of other people is that that desire to always be learning and that recognition that we can learn from everybody who we spend time with. You know, obviously, that means that you have to be somewhat selective. You know, you wanna spend your time with people who are gonna elevate you and, you know, have, you know, a really positive outlook and all that sort of thing.

12:10But I'm just like you. You know, at 56, man, I love sitting in a room and listening to people I've heard before or hearing new people, meeting new people because we're in such an amazing industry. Here is the thing that took me thirty to learn. Everyone always says you wanna hire really good people. You wanna surround yourself with really smart people. But we as some of us as ego maniacal type of dentist believe our work is the best, our verbiage is the best, our systems are the best. Mhmm. But what came what brought me to realize that there are people out there that have such a great understanding of different nuances of our field that search for better than we are. Yes. Great. But search out dentist, search out for an office manager that could explain dentistry a little better than you can right now because you wanna get to the end, and that person is a little more patient.

13:06Whatever it is, start surrounding you with that old adage. Surround yourself with good people because your business grows. But with good people, really good people, it really exponentially goes because they're evaluating things you may have missed. But if you're in a room where you are the king and that's why they say you don't wanna be the smartest man in a room or a woman in room, right, and you learn from people. And you know what? I'm learning. The less I talk, the more I learn. Listen. Listen. Listen to what the people are working for you or working with you are saying. And that's the one thing I feel like we need a little more of in businesses around the industry. Man, you know, I think I think that's gold, Mark.

13:44And I agree with you a 100%. You know, I think that as a young dentist, you know, when I came out of school without those communication skills or leadership skills or business skills, I I think that I think the tendency is to be a micromanager. And to think that, yes, you're the only one who can do everything and you just wanna pay off your student loans and that sort of thing. But I think when reality set in that I am not gonna be successful by myself, you know, you gotta have a team. It's in Mark. I mean, you can expand upon that. Yes. You've got to assemble a team that is capable of carrying out your vision, but they can't do it unless you're able to communicate that vision to them clearly.

14:21And then actually, I guess, lead with self awareness and empathy so that they'll actually follow you. But then you can expand that out beyond the walls of our practices and into the the industry at large. And again, like, man, I I I surround myself with 17 mentors as a young dentist, and I had specific things I wanted to learn from all of them. And now having accumulated all that knowledge and experience and made every mistake you can possibly make, you know, I love excellent mentor. You know what? It's it's your You're an excellent mentor. That's right. You know, we we learn all those things, and our mentees can learn as much from our failures and challenges as they can from our great successes. Right? That's that's the key.

15:02I mean, we can't you know, we're we're, like we can't only talk about our successes. You know? Like, I rebought a practice or I introduced Snap on. Right? Man, there's a lot of lonely nights. We go through it. And if you didn't have a meeting, you didn't have decisions to make. Do I go home early? Do I count this because I think we're short, and I wanna make payroll? That's how it starts. It begins with business ethics. You learn you know, one of the most pry proudest things I have had in my career was last week. I walked into an office in up in up in New York, in Westchester, in New Rochelle. And by the way, if you're listening, I love this group. But I walked into this practice that I sold was part of the sale, the group sale to Guardian.

15:44Great. And we're now expanding from a six to a 10 chair practice in New Rochelle. Gorgeous. I walked in, I noticed they all came into the office to see me because I haven't been there in a couple of months. And I said to everyone, oh my god. Three and a half years ago, this is the group that I sold. Yeah. A 100% together. That's because of the words you said. Empathy, clarity, goal. Give them goals to attain and talk to them. I mean, that is I don't care what I do. The fact that people stay with me and respect me and work with me and for me and for the next generation. To me, that's a big thing because they know that I will respect them.

16:26And I mean and I think that is the the issue. Oh, not the issue, but it's really the the crux of us getting the most out of our team. Good morning. Good evening. Remember, that that to me has I I don't know if that's our upbringing or that's just experience. But whatever it is, these people remember that. You know, and it it's it's really coming from a place of abundance and not trying to keep people down or hold them under our thumbs. It's to elevate the people that we bring into our lives and into our practices. You know, Mark, to that point, you know, I owned multiple practices and, you know, we ran them at a 31% EBITDA. I mean, we did really good dentistry and we had what I call the best dental teams on the planet.

17:05You know, that was, I I just every day, that's how I referred to them because they were just great people, really good at what they do. But, you know, all these years later, all of my former office managers are executives with dental companies. You know, they're all doing very well. They're expanding their influence in the industry and making a lot of money and feeling really good about that. And I couldn't be any more happy, you know, or more proud expanding your influence. I yeah. I guess yeah. I guess so to some degree. Their own translation, but it's the, you know, the core of it. Well, thank you. Yeah. But that's the way it is. And, you know, I love that. And when people call me, will labs say they did something because of my motivation?

17:44I mean, that's where we're at. And Yeah. Some people wanna go. And I think the biggest the biggest thing we have in life, the biggest dilemma is sometimes people say, well, Mark, when are gonna give it up? When are you gonna just you know, I don't know. I I just know one thing. The day we do give it up is not the day you could just easily go back. Mhmm. Because we battle younger dentists, middle aged dentists, and experienced dentists. And we battle them both in the offices, the new patients, and for podium recognition. So it's kind of an interesting world. I love it. And the brightness and the the brain power that's coming into dentistry and is in dentistry. Listen. We're we're still I wouldn't have changed anything.

18:26I really wouldn't have. I loved my profession, and I love what I've done. But I do learn every day, and it's guys like you that are out there that just bring so much attention to the industry and so much knowledge. I think it's phenomenal. Wow. Thank you. And I'm gonna segue into kind of your entrepreneur arc a little bit. You know, I know that you've built, sold, bought back, sold again. I gotta ask you though. Buying back your practice, what did that teach you that no business book ever could? You know, like, what what that experience is so unique to have sold, bought it back, sold again. Like, how did that happen? And, I mean, what did that teach you about business? What? After leaning back and he's talking to maybe a loved one or a good friend, he's smoking a cigar, and you're saying you're having a drink, and you're saying, I don't know what possessed me.

19:16They do that. But the truth be told is, I guess, I'm learning that I am blessed with a couple larger pair than brains. Sold And it. It was part of that thing again. You know? They offered me amazing number. Right. And that would put money in my pocket that would that would make my family feel great. And it was a solo practice, and I was I already started my group endeavor in Jersey. So they came to me, made me a crazy offer, asked me to work a day a week for a year. You got it. After the year, the practice started to really go down. Mhmm. And it went from 4.9 gross revenue a year to 1.6. Oh my god. They called me, and then they asked me, what are we gonna do?

20:00I said, I'm done. They said, we wanna bring you back, and we wanna bonus you whatever you want. I said, I'll tell you what. I wanna I have a check-in my pocket, and I wanna buy it back. And they asked me the number, and I said it's 8% of what you paid me. They paid me over 5, and I had to check. And they said, you're nuts. And they walked out to call the CEO. And they come back fifteen minutes later, and they said, when can you close? Oh my gosh. My birthday is in seven days. I'd like to close on my birthday and take it over. And what is the reason? Because you cannot build an office where it's delivering personal care, where it's delivering doctors that have been there for a long time, that it's delivering staff that and team.

20:47It's not they're beyond staff. They're teammates that are delivering care and concern for the patients to become a report, a number. And then it was different. I really think the DSOs and me being one of them, maybe not teaching them, but they may have learned from it, is that I think the DSOs and the DPOs became much better. They become much better at targeting the individual practices and what they need. Back then, they didn't. So they sold it back. And I ended up selling it to Guardian when it was back up to almost a $4,000,000 gross. And I'm happy to say that Guardian's operations, and I'm not just saying this, are people like you say, they were office managers. They were operation reps or or product reps, but they understand the value of the practice and and the people in it.

21:34And that's a different story right now. So I I kudos to the people that aspire, and there is so much room in this in this industry to grow. Oh, man. No doubt about it. I mean, that that's again, going back to that abundance mindset. And you think about the industry, really any industry, it's so based on relationships. It's based on culture. And I think it's something that you you you hit the nail on the head earlier. I think in the past when there wasn't a lot of competition, it was really easy for some bigger DSOs just accumulate aggregate aggregate aggregate without a real focus on the culture and the boots on the ground. The people who are really making it happen, the people who are taking care of the patients, the people who are creating value that without that, they've got nothing no matter how smart you are sitting in the corporate office.

22:17And so the groups that do well are the ones that create infrastructure based upon those incredible people who build relationships. They understand the mentality. They understand the importance of relationship, like value, like capital, like the people who have the patience. Freedom rights. Yes. Exactly. And and, you know, now more than ever, you gotta have that culture down. It's harder to recruit and retain than it's ever been. Right? If you're a sports fan. But, you know, huge and huge. If you come out and you evaluate talent, what's the difference between the guys you're evaluating? Everyone tries for the top three picks. Yeah. But, man, you can get a first round or sixth round that deliver you six, seven Super Bowls. Or you can deliver a point guard.

23:01I just wanna throw in a thank you for my Knicks. You can deliver a point guard, and you just become a leader in Brunson, and changes the fabric of that team. It's the same thing in dentistry. You bring somebody that people galvanize. I use that word a lot. Really think a person in our practice needs to have people that respect them. It's not us doctors. It's not necessarily the hygienists, but it's somebody that's a leader and wants to grow, treats people like themselves, talks to them like you would. And if you don't talk to them that way, you should learn too because we are in a competitive world. And I think it just doesn't take a lot to call up and say, hey. I know you were out.

23:42Are you feeling alright? It takes you thirty seconds and you keep somebody. And, yes, I'm I'm a very I'm I'm sure all of us are busy, but I'm a very, very busy guy. And I think doing those things, we trained early. You're talking about young dentists. I don't care if you're a DSO or alone. Build your practice through your relationships like Jim is talking. Doctor Arnold hit it. I mean, you hit it. It's relationships. A relationship when you start, and then you train yourself. But the the groups have gotten better because they used to look at the dots. This guy's got six offices, five offices. They almost never cared about the revenue. They only cared about the location, so they didn't know what to do operationally.

24:24Then it changed. It became more of gross revenue. And then they put it all together, and it became EBITDA. EBITDA. And EBITDA is the word that people need to understand, but that is what they generate. And that's why their operations, they care for the team because they learn. Your EBITDA is worth more if you have a solid team. If you have us, that's Absolutely. But I believe in my heart of hearts that to build a dental business, just like a widget business or a furniture business, you've gotta build quality widgets and great furniture because furniture doesn't bring secondary customers. So what I'm saying is it starts with the dentist. The dentist, we have to pick it like a basketball team. We have to see the way they they sit, the way they speak, how they say thank you.

25:15We need to educate them in many ways. But it is the dentist's ability to speak, to be explanatory, be communicative, and then deliver that makes us an a very successful team. It's not Right? I mean, it's not gonna be a manager. So much. So much there. Gosh. I wanna dive in. And, I mean, you look at you look at the best GMs in professional sports and they are the ones who yeah. Obviously, if you get one of the top three picks, you're probably gonna do pretty well with them. But you can also find that fourth rounder who is just an unbelievable value that you're not gonna have pay as much, but they're gonna come in. And because of their their work ethic, because of their attitude, because of the the positivity that they bring to the locker room and that fire in their soul to go out and win, those are the ones who elevate the people around them.

26:03And so being a a great dentist, practice owner, it's no different. You gotta find those people who it's not necessarily like, as a young dentist, I was hiring resumes. Like, oh my gosh. Look at this twenty years of experience and all these things. When I finally realized, no. You are hiring people based on their personality, their work ethic, their values, being on the same page related to the value you create for patients. Those are the things that you can't train. Any anybody else I mean, if if you have those those traits, you can learn to do absolutely anything. Right? I'm gonna tell you something. I remember referring a patient of mine in my Manhattan office to an associate years ago. Patient comes out, Guy gentleman, the doctor did a root canal.

26:50No longer with me, by the way. So he's years ago when and the patient came over to me and said, doctor, I would like you to do my next step. I go, why? Didn't he do a good job? Can you tell me? He says, no. But I didn't like the way he spoke to his assistant. Yeah. I said, really? But he did a great job. He really did. Now I wouldn't say that. So I know I'm not I didn't say that, but I did say, but he did he hurt you? No. He was painless. But I don't wanna hear him talk badly to his assistant. And I told the woman on the Upper West Side Of Manhattan that she will only see me from here on in, but I use that as a learning experience.

27:22We we have to be ready at all accounts. How we talk to the assistant, I'm sorry. Please bring that in. I'm in the middle of a geyser. You know what I mean? Like Yeah. You have to know we're on stage. Oh, yeah. Showtime. Right? It's showtime. You got it. And you know what? When you are on stage, it's important to be with people. At least in my estimation, it was always important to be with people who could call me out. Like, we were working together. They weren't necessarily working for me even though I paid you know, wrote their checks and all that kind of thing. It was just that mutual respect where we could call each other out. We wouldn't deal with it in front of a patient, but we could have a conversation later.

28:01And sometimes I'm in the wrong. And that's okay because that's how humans interact. If you have some some level of emotional intelligence, then you take that and you improve your relationship every step of the way. And that's why guys like you and me had team members who stayed with us for twenty plus years because we were family, and we had that level of trust and comfort with one another. Believe that. And I I related to an associate of mine who's been with me for almost thirteen years. Through all the sales Mhmm. And all the differences, he's been there. Producing about a million 7, a million 8 on four days. Yeah. Wow. Good for him. Guy they he and he's not alone, but he is one of the best.

28:41And the reason I say this is because he's the guy that showed me that general dentist can become great surgeons. Mhmm. Also, rotary root canal, peep delivery of that system. Yeah. Pranavent cosmetics, surgical extractions. You could do clear aligners. You could be a total general, super general dentist, and you could reduce that as long as you keep in mind the things you can't do. Right? And these are the docs that are coming now. Super general dentist. I have a son, fourth year school. He doesn't want a specialist, but he wants to go to the to the residency that give the most experience of surgery and crown of bridge because he wants to do that. And to me, that's what it's about. And I I think to the point, you they have to have the confidence that I'm letting them do that, but they should keep my thoughts.

29:31Yes. So you know what I mean? They have helped me structure a business plan when I give everything to a specialist at fifty, fifty five percent, where I give it to my super general dentist at 35%. You know why that's so important, Mark? It's so important because when it does come time to transition your practice, you wanna have a business that's sellable. You don't wanna just have a job. I think too many dentists have a career and they work in the practice instead of on the practice. And that's fine. You know, there's a million different ways to do it and do with the way it makes you happy and, you know, sets you up for retirement, all that sort of thing. But when it comes to transitions, you have to do what you can to derisk the situation for a potential buyer.

30:11And you do that by having great people and great systems because that's what they're buying. If they are buying you because you are the producer doing everything, well, it's super risky. You're not gonna get as much because if you get hit by a bus, guess what? Their investment is worth next to nothing. And so I I think I spent six or seven years obsoleting myself from the practice in that I just kept cutting back my clinical, kept elevating my associates, made everybody more successful so that we had systems and people that were very attractive. You know, I wanna it's funny you say that because I don't wanna make a company. I don't have to embarrass or call out. But the company that bought me at that great number Mhmm.

30:51A year and a half ago came to me and made me an offer, but told me that the practice practice was was too too heavy heavy me. Me. It's It's words I sell all the cases. I'm doing a lot of the work. I was a $2,000,000 producer. So I spent a year and a half thinking about that and structuring a a more a more experienced older dentist and young dentists to do more of the work. Mhmm. Good. Treatment plans. Because sometimes we, as dentists, are the gatekeepers. We do the evaluation. We do the treatment plan. Then we farm it out to our associates. For sure. But then when we walk away, can our associates sell dentistry, or they're just waiting for someone to are they just, like, you know, gun for hire?

31:31You know what I'm saying? Yeah. They wanted mine to be well rounded, and they should know how to do it. And that's why the mentorship piece is so important. 100%. And most of the things in dentistry and here's something that I want you to I always tell my docs. I say the amazing thing about dentistry is the more you're gonna help a patient by if you could detect cervical decay, if you could detect a periapical lucency, if you know that this tooth is not gonna have enough purchase power for the margin that you can extract it, do a bone graft, an implant, You could do those things. Right? You Mhmm. It's it's it's just the same thing that these doctors can deliver such great care throughout, but we have to be able to deliver everything if we're gonna be considering ourselves a supergeneralist.

32:21The standpoint of patient care to team, we are there right now. There are it used to be several. Now every interview I have is somebody striving to be that supergeneralist. I love it. So I think we need to pick the talent to take it into the next because the hardest thing is gonna be, especially for New York and and cities that have all dentists that just love what they do, is that's gonna be a challenge. You gotta bring somebody in sooner than later. For sure. And I'm I'm actually I'm gonna get into that in just a few minutes. But thinking back to the first time you sold to a DSO, you know, I'm obviously, there's a public perception of what selling to a DSO looks like, but then there's also that private, more emotional variation or version of it.

33:05Because I went through it ten years ago, and I know how it feels to be in that seat and worrying about, like, man, your legacy and this thing you built. It's like you're it's a part of your family and part of who you are. It's such so attached to identity. But for you, what surprised you the most the first time you went through that process that will help other dentists thinking about going through it now? Yeah. Yeah. I think what affected me the most is, first of all, there's nothing like watching the wire of millions of dollars coming. So let me just say this. I remember that. Thanks to God. Right? But that afternoon, when you see your account, it should be done in a a little bit.

33:44And that that's a great feeling. But I wanna say this to you. If you're a young dentist, yes, support of your family, but losing that, it's like I was in that practice for many, many years. Yeah. And, emotionally, I always believe I did it for the right reason, but we are humans. We treat people. When we sell our practice, they could do and tell us to do whatever they want. So make sure it's the right deal, the right time. But for me, there was definitely emotional component for a while of losing something that I built literally built and built up. And thank god god was amazing. You know? God god I think anything we do, I'd be remiss if I don't say, you know, there's somebody in any religion you are, stay true to it.

34:29But Yeah. We'd be remiss if we don't think somebody's pulling those strings for us. And I think we just have to make the most of those ropes, and and that's really what I believe. And and and that's my goal. You know? I try to make the most. I think he put me in situations that I'm crazy. But and I I don't even talk about some of the things we're doing now, but but I do say that he put me in great situations and a great profession. You know? So, you know, you know it, and we're blessed. I think we're blessed. Absolutely. Yeah. No doubt about it. We not leave this world with, you know, Wall Street money or that total aspect, but we we think that's what we're set out to do.

35:06We wanna live a great life and a comfortable life, but we really love innately. If you're on a podcast, if you're talking, it's it's it's a labor of love, and people don't understand it that you bring so much knowledge to people. And, you know, guys like me, we we believe in what we say. I think I'm clear and more transparent today than I was, and maybe people can learn from it. You know, people made a lot of lot of money and a great living. Go ahead. How cool is that? You know, I mean, like, to think about the arc of your career, to think about us as humans and just going back that whole mentality of always trying to change and improve and expand our influence, expand, you know, kind of the impact that we can have on the industry or on other people, you know, whether, again, there are patients, there are teams, our families, other dentists, all that sort of thing.

35:53And I think that when you do keep that mentality on the forefront, you're always gonna be invited into those rooms, and you're always gonna have opportunities to continue to grow as a person. But by the on the same token, like, things don't always go perfectly. I mean, as entrepreneurs, most of us experience, like, a punch in the gut at some time, kind of a reality check. And, like, for you, what was yours, if you don't mind me asking, and how did that reshape kind of how you lead permanently after that? Or just your perspective on life and on business in general? Wow. I know that's deep. Jim, you are great. I love it. Well, thanks. I love it. No. I love it. I think that's what I want.

36:34I want someone to pick the inner what happened on a Friday night when Trident see, what happened with Trident, it's amazing how many stories I do have, but I'll keep them brief. I went to Japan to lecture for Trident, and they sent me to Japan. What they were going to do was they produced one knockoff called Vogue Veneers. Oh. When I was in Japan sleeping, they came out with dentistry today in the front page. So I came home immediately leaving 300 Japanese dentists sitting there because I was there for Trident, and they were busy knocking my product off. Unbelievable. Destructed to come home immediately. I'm flying home from Japan. And we're I get home, and we're in an all out lawsuit. Fast forward a couple of months.

37:15I'm home Friday night. We do have Friday night dinners, and I get a letter or an email saying that a lawsuit was instituted personally against me and my family by TriNet. And they they knew what were they doing. They were gonna break me, and I went upstairs. And we had company that night, and I told my wife, I am I think we're dead, and I didn't know what was coming. I was a dentist who created a product. But in the end, we all gross, grow more, and we get all more experienced, and we put people around us. And in the end, it was it was a little tedious, but it ended well. And I think that was my revelation of realizing dentistry as a profession is the most unprofessional profession.

37:58Now that was me saying it to me that I had to watch everything and everybody I talked to Yeah. Because they were coming, and other people were coming. And I wanna just say that, and that is the truth. And it made me realize that we have to be buttoned up. We have to deal with only people we trust. And, you know, it's a it's a very tough field out there. So I think it was good to learn. Cost me a few bucks legally, but it went away in the end, and it ended up being being working out very well. But I think to all of us, whether we're negotiating our first practice, when we're buying our first practice or a second practice or negotiating a new manager that's a little more pricey than we want.

38:39We need to understand that we have a whole career to build. We are building an amazing career. So don't be afraid. It's easy when you're younger. It's easy when your kids are younger. But at the same token, if if you if you got that internal life, that's the thing that keeps you going, then, truthfully, that's the most important thing in your life. And that I mean that. I really always lived with that. I think my wife would be happy to hear that. But, you know, there's great temptations in the world, and we're blessed to always see it and try to live with it. But the fact is that that's how the decisions I made, you know, and even, you know, getting rid of Snap on, selling Snap on when I do lose because it was just really ripping my family's time together.

39:23Or it's something you know, that's how I wait. You know what? Thanks for sharing that. I think that all any of us who have been around for a while and have done a lot of things have had those moments. And I think those moments are very instructive for other people. You know, you hear the cliches about my pain can be someone else's path or my darkness can be someone else's light. But, you know, the reality is that so often we feel isolated in this industry. And and maybe just as maybe that's just a human nature, the human condition. But I think that when people hear of challenges that other successful people have been through and kind of got through it, learned something from it, I just think that there's a lot of value in that that, you know, anybody listening to this will be very appreciative that you shared that.

40:07So including me. So thank you, Mark. I appreciate that. That's awesome. My pleasure. And I do wanna add one thing. You know, as we sit back and you you could attest to this, Jim. I mean, you spend a lot of times bettering yourself and your show and your knowledge. It is a lonely walk. It is something we have to want. You know, many, many years ago, it was, like, another another thing that just ended in my path was a book saying, the walk of lions. It was a book. I don't even remember. It was a small paperback about entrepreneurs, and it it it it really describes the loneliness of an entrepreneur. And I think us like, I find myself project by project. You know, if I'm like, you talk about this, like, yes, I immerse myself in these things because I know it's gonna end, and I know my career is gonna end.

40:54Mhmm. And it's gonna be sad when it ends. You know? It could be in two years, five years, ten whenever it ends, whatever my career ends, your it's gonna be a time that I wish we had these uncertainties. You know? So embrace these things. You know? If I walk on a stage, I say to myself, if not me, then who? If I'm on a podcast, I just know I don't have to study. All I do is think about things that I mean, I'm not telling you anything what happened to me, you know, and the because we've all had those trials and tribulations. And my feeling to people is you wanna make this successful, and people before you have pioneered so much. Mhmm. Forget me, but the people that really educate you have pioneered so much.

41:35Grasp it. Learn it. This is one walk through this profession. You don't get another one. This ain't no dress rehearsal. That's a damn sure. You gotta make the most of it. Right? You know? Well, you know, and I think that's the authenticity and vulnerability that sometimes is lacking. You know what mean? In our society, you know, we're trained to, like, oh, gotta be strong and we can't show any kind of vulnerability or weaknesses or whatever. And, you know, like, some things sometimes that gets in the way of of real kind of relationship building and real mentorship and that sort of thing. And and my perspective is that's one of the things that's made you successful, and it's one of the reasons why people listen to what you have to say, you know, and they wanna have these conversations.

42:11And, you know, one of those is around what you mentioned earlier about being a super generalist. I I love that. You know, I've heard super GP and, you know, a whole bunch of other ways of saying that, but I know that's like an idea that you've been championing for a while. What in your career sort of triggered that belief for you or the importance of the super generalist? You know, I alluded to it before. It's the it's the associates that came along. You know, I started practices, and every practice had great specialists. But after a while, I've noticed that I'm giving specialists specialty work that really isn't specialty work. Yeah. So why am I giving them three anterior canals when it's gonna take them forty minutes to do all three when this general dentist could do it without waiting a week and a half until that specialist comes in?

42:57So I said and then I started to see the next generation of dentists come in. And I started to say, let's start letting them do what they wanna do. Let's get them educated. Let's get them right. And today's world, the vendors will teach our dentists more than CE, and they'll give them a CE. Whether you're in a group or private mainstream or private practice, that your vendors will educate your associates. But I do believe that, you know, specialists should be doing specialty work. And why can't a a super GP who spent time learning about it, looking at YouTube videos, taking CE courses, but why can't they take a tooth out and bone graft it? Why can't they put an implant into with the guide? I mean, they're putting a hammer through an you know, through a hole, a nail through a hole.

43:43I'm saying, you know, the clear aligners today, I mean, I'm a big proponent of something like ortho brain that has people telling you what the treatment plan is. So today's world, I think the dentists are doing themselves a disservice. And when I see an associate that has five, six years out, and I interview just about every day for a doctor in a couple of states. Yeah. So when I see associate out five, six, seven years, and they don't do implants. They don't like to do surgery, and they only do anterior root canals. What are you doing to better yourself? You came out with the same skill set in dental school. Mhmm. Didn't do implants, didn't like surgery, and did only anterior root canals. What have you done for the last six years?

44:22Yeah. I feel. You know what I mean? Like, get better. Well, look. I I think at the end of the day, when it comes to clinicians and dentists and, like, what kind of careers we wanna have, you know, one of the beautiful things is that we can pick and choose, you know, the the things that we want to do. And that's awesome. What that also means, however, is some dentists aren't the right fit to come and work with guys like you or guys like me or in certain groups. You know? It's again, I I I love that you can run your practice so many different ways and I mean, there are practices now they're just focused on sleep, you know, and that's amazing because twenty seven percent of Americans suffer from some level of sleep sleep disruption or sleep apnea.

45:03And so there are a lot of ways as dentist to change lives. But as a as a business and as a place that patients love to go, I think the the era of the super generalist is just going to take off like a rocket because you hit the nail on the head. Right. I believe also this. We live in a world of it's been proven that if you have consistent staff, consistent providers, same hygienist doctors, teammates, they're all with you for more than three to five years, Your practice will grow exponentially just given the fact of the likeness. Yes. My opinion is the better dentist today, right, there's two factors for me. One is dentally, because I do get ruled by clinician by the clinic clinician in me.

45:50It is that underneath my five things, it says comprehensive treatment plan. And that's because I don't want somebody who does root canals doing root canal on a tooth that should come out. I don't want people doing implants on teeth that should be safe. But if you do all of it, you don't have any bias. You do what's best for the patient. You see? Yes. You see, it's not only business. It's the thing I said before. The more we do for our patient, the better we do for our patient, the more lucrative it is. If I diagnose and I'm not scared to do a root canal on a molar because the patient has an infection, rather than send it up the block, not only am I doing more for the patient to your point, but I'm doing more for the practice by revenue, but also we do this well.

46:34And we can And you know what? They wanna stay. They wanna stay with you. You know, you have the relationship. You care about them. You know their families. They see you every six months or more frequently, and they don't want to go somewhere else. It's inconvenient. It's more scary. They you know, when you have that relationship and they come in and see that team that makes them feel safe and makes them feel loved, they just want to have you do it. And if you can do it, they win, you win, the practice wins, and it's great for the industry. I will tell you something. It's really a great feeling, and the patient's only asking for a yes. Can you do it here? Yes. Great. They're not even asking how much what is it?

47:15They just don't wanna move. And I want people to understand something as we're getting a lot of movers from New York. Not every city or state or town we move to has another dentist on the 3rd Floor or up the block. Some people have to get in their car and drive twelve months. Some people have to take a train. So I think convenience has become since COVID has become uberly important. And our ability now switch to a business, our ability to keep things in staff increases our staff salary, our revenue, our ability to pay bills and get better materials. Our job as dentists is to educate ourselves. Yeah. Stay five, six years doing the same procedures you did in dental school. Mhmm. That's called sitting on a couch and collecting a paycheck.

48:01You know what? I'm I wanna expand upon that theme because you mentor so many dentists. You have in the past, you do now, and as do you But what what do you think the biggest sort of mindset block holding most dentists back is? You know? I mean, there's lots of different things. But but what do you think is the biggest mindset block that just doesn't allow them to reach their full potential? I mean, I I truly believe legally is, legal is always on a person's mind. You know? I think young dentists heard horror stories. They took these jurisprudence tests, and they're afraid they're gonna be sued for the first time. I I think every young dentist has that in mind. The second thing I feel is they're just not confident.

48:41Yeah. And they come in and they wanna do a central in you know, a central, root canal or number eight, and they're not confident. So they send it to the endodontist on Fridays. It's like if I give a hygienist an hour and a half for one particular scaling rule playing that's a heavy heavy, you'd now see them get ninety minutes for everything. I believe we have to keep the horse in the barn. We have to mentor these by not just saying to do it, by nurturing them that they can do it. And until they can do it, if you're fortunate enough to have a second dentist or you in the office, bring them along because you hide them for a reason. And if we keep changing doctors, that's what I'm talking about.

49:19You have to ask a doctor. You you're gonna lose that credibility. Doc, I see you. What's her name now? You don't wanna hear that. Continuity is everything. You know? And that's for the doctor and for the team. You know, they don't wanna see a new person sitting in the front office, like, every every time they come in. And and, unfortunately, it happens so often. And and I'm not picking on DSOs, you know, but I I I have seen it. I I was an exec for a big DSO for a year, and and I've seen a lot of other situations where they look at that relationship capital and use words like, oh, we can backfill that position. I'm like, no. This person has been here for thirteen years.

49:56They know all the patients. They know the team. They know the systems. And they're everybody's replaceable, but they're not gonna be replaced at that level. It's gonna cost you a lot of money to do that. And so that continuity and that familiarity with the doctors and teams, critically important. Yes. But I will add this. I think we've all become better business people because of the groups. I think our KPIs I'll I gotta ask doctor Gordon if he knew back in the sixties or seventies what a KPI meant. So, you know, I think we gotta say not I'm not talking positively about the groups. But EBITDA, KPIs, looking at numbers in dentistry, understanding percentages and hourly wages, they gave us a and we should embrace them for what they are.

50:43An exit and a great means to an end. You hit the nail on the head. I mean, in so many ways, it's so important to keep that in mind. And and, actually, we're it it's so funny. The arc of this conversation, Mark, is just perfect because it's literally the next question that I'm gonna ask you about. But before we get to that, just I know my life. I know. Right? I know. I know. You know, like, one of the things we do talk about super generalists and you talk about, like, mindset blocks and dentists wanting to achieve a higher level of excellence. You know, in your mind, what really separates a good dentist from a truly elite one? And I'm guessing it's not just clinical skills.

51:24Everybody that could do dentistry do cosmetics. I don't care if it's sleep. They communicate on a level that's different than the ones that are just really good clinicians. Yep. And I truly believe that I I'm gonna say this. I never placed an implant. I hated to do molar root canals. So I had specialists. And I had a $5,000,000 practice, and I produced 2,000,000. But I produced it with my tongue. I was able to communicate and sell dentistry better than anyone in the office, and they would use me. And that is a positive and a negative because what the groups found out is that guys like me are slightly dangerous because people around me become enamored by that, but they don't become engaged with that. So I spent a lot of time getting my people better, but I do believe that the most important factor we have is, man, is our professionalism.

52:19We have to lean on our on our ability to communicate, talk politely, let people feel that it's not just our ability to do the dentistry, but we do have a heart. We do have some chair sides. You know how many times we've heard back twenty years ago? Yeah. He she's great, but she has a terrible chest on manner. Or he's phenomenal, but I I I just don't like the guy. That doesn't fly anymore. So I think the thing that separates the elite from the good is the package. They speak, they do, they look, they carry, and they treat. And those are the things we need as clinicians. It doesn't just happen. You know, we all worked on something. Right? Jim, we all worked. Boy. You know, I I think that it it really underscores a lot of things, but one of them is just the importance of soft skills, you know, that we typically don't come out of dental school with.

53:10Like, you know, I briefly alluded to it earlier, you know, the leadership communication business skills. We just don't come out of the womb knowing all of these things. Some people are further ahead than others. Some people kind of learn it through mentorship. Some people will learn it through trial and trial and error. But I do think that sometimes we we minimize the importance of those soft skills. You know? But the beautiful thing, Mark, is you well know that anybody can learn those soft skills. You know, they are teachable as long as you're open minded and as long as you understand the importance of it and as long as you have the right teacher slash mentor to come in and help you with it. Right? Yes.

53:46Yes. I agree with that. And I agree that the mentor has to understand that not everybody was able to take off from the top of the key, fly in the air, and dunk. Right? Michael Jordan didn't coach. So we, as mentors, have to understand that not everybody's gonna grasp it the way did we did. Yeah. But once they grasp it, they got it. Now, you know, I I think of a story of a doctor in New York that I mentored for the last three years. He is just an absolute bond burner of a of a producer. Phenomenal. I put him in an office, his implants, his extractions, restorations. But, you know, the thing that gets me about him and this person is just about his empathy.

54:25I mean, doing dentistry goes so far. Eventually, it it it the cream rises. If you truly care and those soft skills come out, like, explain to them what they're gonna get. Explain to them what they should feel. Explain what happens if we don't do the treatment. And and you know what? Don't let them leave the office with with stuff on their face. Don't let them leave the office without making sure they know who to call if they have a problem. Soft skills means we're gonna take care of you from the moment you walk in to the moment you walk out, and that means the last visit on that treatment. So I do believe that I'm a business guy, and everyone's heard me on business things.

55:05Mhmm. But the one thing we went into this for, still true for thirty something years, and that is the people. Yes. We are dealing with the people. That's right. And and you know what? It's it's you know, we talk about it sort of on a micro level, you know, at the office level. We talk about it, you know, with patients, with our teams, and all that sort of thing. But I we think can extrapolate that onto the more macro level. And when you do look at the landscape of dentistry today and the multitude of DSOs out there, which I agree, they're forcing dentists to kinda raise the bar, you know, whether it's, like, paying attention to their numbers, you know, because Getting your office, you know That's right.

55:45Even a driven All of those feature of all those things. That's right. I mean, back in the day, well, still, you know, in probably 80% of cases, dentists love to talk about their numbers. Like, they talk about their production, they talk about their collections, and guess what? It doesn't mean a damn thing unless your profitability and EBITDA numbers are are good. That's where it's at because everybody can say, hey, I have an $8,000,000 practice. And but if the reality is you're taking $200,000 home, well, guess what? What is that? A two and half percent EBITDA there? I mean, it's that that has persisted for so long. And now because of DSOs and because of transitions market and all the things that are happening, now dentists are starting to get clued into that so that they understand the levers that they can push and pull to increase the value of their practices before they go to market so that they don't leave millions of dollars on the table.

56:35And by the way, through doing all of that, they're gonna provide better care. They're gonna provide a better workplace. It's gonna be a better culture, and everybody wins. Right? And I've gotta tell you something. There are stories of you know who got better? Let's let's think of it. I'm not as a downer about groups. Not because I made money on them, but that's one thing. But that's not what I'm about. What I'm saying is that if you look at the Medicaid Medicaid roster of dentists Mhmm. They really are just Medicaid dentists. What I mean by that is the groups have told many practices, we don't buy Medicaid. So if a million of your 3,000,000 is made up of Medicaid, we consider you having a $2,000,000 practice, but you're spending all this money.

57:14So now dentists who really have had self awareness problems, you know, self confidence to drop the Medicaid Yeah. And they have to get better. They have to produce better. And I think that's an amazing factor that is is really not talked about, that the lower end is staying with people that just wanna do low end. That's there's a need. But the better dentist or dentist that aspire to be better Yeah. Are not taking them because there's no end game. There's no exit with that type of clientele. 100%. I'll tell you what. I was I'd say over the last ten years, I've been involved in about 60 transactions, you know, some of them personally, some of them corporately, some on this side of table, some on that side of table, some in the middle of the table, you know, where you just kind of get used to you see everything and, you know, and I I have seen that a lot because most groups do not wanna buy practices with any level of Medicaid.

58:04There was one in particular, Mark, that was doing 7,000,000 and 2,000,000 of that was Medicaid. And the doctor was like, no. I am not dropping that. I'm gonna keep doing it. And and you know what? They do it for different reasons. Sometimes it's just like a public service, you know, which which I totally get. But when it comes time to sell, you're not likely to capitalize on that portion of your practice and the buyer is likely to gonna ask you to set it aside. And the last thing I'll say about this, I have on the other hand, I have seen a couple of practices over the past several years, Mark, where they were actually doing a high level of Medicaid dentistry and but this is the only way you can do it.

58:40The only way you can do it is to be all in on it, have scheduling efficiencies and staffing efficiencies that lead to were clinical workflows where each person does their job and kind of an assembly line format. And nobody is rushed. They're just being efficient where the patient gets the care they need. The office has enough revenue pushing through because you can't do it if you're like dabbling in it. You're getting $29 for a pro fee when you're paying your hygienist $50 an hour and stuff like that. So it's like people don't understand there are ways to skin every cat. And there are tens of millions of Americans on Medicaid who need care, but you can't dabble. You gotta go all in or forget about it.

59:22I just remember the dentist used to have a a great Christmas party in New York City. The older dentist used to invite a bunch of us to somebody's home, beautiful apartment. And I remember doctor Goldberg and doctor Jones. Doctor Goldberg had a Medicaid office. Doctor Jones didn't. They both came in together. Doctor Goldberg had a hump. Doctor Goldberg was 62, and he looked nicely. Doctor Jones was 64, and he was going to play tennis. He had to keep his service practice. You worked four times as hard on a Medicaid office, if not more. My feeling is this. There's a need for Medicaid. When they increase their fees to be commensurate with PPOs, there'll be a need in some of our practices. Until then, they should get the care they need in offices that are dedicated.

1:00:06But if you're doing it if you're doing it to bait and switch them, and I've seen it a lot, where people take them, but they tell them the only thing that's gonna be good is an all on x. If you're doing it for that, then the government should get you because it's not right. And I just feel I'm not the law, but I'm saying that if I'm doing I just cannot see a $2,200 crown sitting in the waiting room against a $29 pro fee. So I feel you can make a living every way you want. It's just I keep thinking about Jones and Goldberg. Yeah. You know? I can't keep thinking of it. And and you are preaching to the choir, Mark, because I was fee for service my whole career.

1:00:42And I'm not saying it's a better way or anything like that. There are great practices doing all kinds of things. Most are hybrids and that sort of thing. No problem. That having been said, you know, when you look at practices that are predominantly PPO, they can be super successful. They can do great dentistry. And you're gonna have to see probably twice as many patients. And I decided early in my career, and that's I'm not saying a 100%, but for me personally, I just wasn't willing to give a 40 to 50% discount to an insurance company because I worked my ass off and I got exquisitely well trained and I knew the level of what I was offering. I couldn't do it at the fee schedules that they would reimburse me on.

1:01:19And now, again, every practice is different. So I'm not I'm not poo pooing PPO. Poo pooing PPO. I don't think I've ever said that before per se. But, you know, I am in January starting a a mastermind that will help dentists go down the fee for service path. And and it doesn't mean they have to be a 100% or anything like that. It just means in an aspirational sense, perhaps dropping some of those plans that aren't so good, but doing it strategically, doing it intelligently, and just increasing that element, that aspect so that they can potentially see fewer patients, make more money, be more relationship based like you and I have always been, and, you know, a little bit less about volume. You see, I think there's so much to talk about with that.

1:02:01One is one is I'm just gonna throw a few things out. Yeah. Please. I think that transferability of a PPO practice is and when you get ready to sell It's easier. When it it's it's it it you take a fee for service doctor that is a 3 and a half million dollar practice. Yep. After you 2 and a half million, 2,700,000 of the revenue. Your hygienist did 1,000,000. So right now, we have to find a doctor who could replace you at 2,700,000. Your EBITDA is very, very low because owner rock is out of it. So let's look at the business picture. But for me, the for me, PPOs with one, it was marketing. It brought in a lot of patients. And I think back to my comprehensive treatment planning.

1:02:47Your benefits, Mary, ran out three crowns ago. Meaning, we get a $2,000 max, and you need $27,000 worth of work. We're going to accept your insurance. They're they're great. Yes. You're this is and we're gonna do it over two years because you're gonna heal. Yep. Your balance and Mary's gonna and Billy's gonna come in is 23,000, but I'm gonna talk money because they're gonna talk money. So what is the point? If I have to add in certain things and they're accepting and it's all in line that I'm in an area that has good U C C good U C you know, usual customary rate? Makes all the difference in the world. It makes a difference because we're accepting the. We're accepting the hardworking people. And I'm not an aloof guy.

1:03:29I I want you know what I mean? I wanna open, but I also wanna treat and plan them com comprehensively. You have to. You can't treat and plan to an insurance plan or anything like that. I mean, ethically, it's incumbent upon us, obviously, to give them all of their options because if we don't, nobody else will. And we can't preassume anything. We can't assume that somebody can't or won't say yes. Try to cut you off. Yeah. Let's face it. Mastermind that would be great is treatment planning. Mhmm. Because too many doctors come in and say, well, if I tell them everything, I'm gonna scare them off. Yeah. I I I challenge you doctors who think that. Mhmm. Let them go get a second opinion and that you never told them they needed three teeth taken out and implants.

1:04:11You never told them that they had an abscess on number 14 because you didn't wanna scare them. Mhmm. That's illegal. That's malpractice to me. I agree. And I think we tell them comprehensively because if the other guy missed it, we're better off. And if the other gal didn't give him a treatment plan that didn't entail this, we're better I I just say If stick with your if we don't if we don't tell them, again, nobody else will. And they have the right to know everything, we have to treat everybody like a family member and all that kind of stuff. It's such a cliche, but it's it's so true. And let's just be honest. It takes a higher level of communication skills to get people to either pay more because they're out of network or to do that elective care or that care that goes way beyond what their insurance is gonna cover.

1:04:54I mean, like, a lot of people are just gonna put it off till the first year, and that's fine if everybody's situation is different, everybody's value proposition is different. But the better we can communicate like you have throughout your career, the more likely they are to say yes to the care they need no matter what their insurance situation is. And I'll tell you, of the 7,000 patients in my practice, the last practice that I was in, you know what? I I bet 4,000 of them were on PPOs. And and guess what? They still came to us. You know, they paid more out of pocket, but they knew they were in the right place. And, know, that just comes down to that conversation and making sure that you're not the only one who can have that conversation, but your entire team is exquisitely trained.

1:05:32Because, hey, man, we're only as strong as a practice as the weakest link. And if there's somebody who drops the ball in that communication piece, well, then people aren't as likely to say yes, and they're not as likely to get the care they need. But you agree, and I think that's so well said. I I think you have a a an amazing ability to communicate. And when you're talking to patients about their, you know, why they need what they need, and you're you're probably convincing them just by the way you're talking to them. But for dentists out there right. But for dentists out there who don't believe that their communicative skills are on that level, it becomes a little more difficult. And It does. It can be daunting.

1:06:08Right? It could be daunting, and it could be what we see is easy. I'll I'll go in that is is is monumental for them to get over. It's really a big hurdle. And I feel that having somebody like you for people or me, for people to listen, like, I would get a text and and say, could you call me about this? And I would say, okay. And I call them, and like you alluded to, I give them the verbiage. Yeah. But but there's such a different mindset when you're doing fee for service dentistry, and I think it's amazing. Mhmm. But I think right now in today's world, we have to see it's not for everybody. That's my the communicative. Oh my gosh. And, again, just back to the theme of this, there's so many different ways to practice, and we all have to feel comfortable in the the model that we decide.

1:06:53And and, you know, just back to soft skills, I mean, it's all treat teachable. If somebody wants to learn that and by the way, I'm also a realist. I'm not dumb enough to think that it's super easy to do, because I know it's not. And in some markets, it's harder than others. But the soft skills necessary to well, treatment planning isn't a soft skill, but treatment planning, you know, case presentation, you know, patient transfers, financial I mean, all of those things are so important to the entire pie. And if you're missing on one of those things, well, it's gonna be really hard to either do fee for service or get people to do things beyond what their insurance is gonna cover. People won't be able to do anything.

1:07:29They can learn it. They can learn it. With mentorship, with the right mastermind, all that stuff, it's it's doable. Right. That's what I'm saying. The beauty of our profession today is the ability to learn all your shortcomings. Mhmm. If you have a communication issue, learn. If you have a root canal issue, learn. If you wanna do bone grafting and you're a little uncertain because you haven't done it, learn. Go on YouTube. Go on the anything. Go take a podcast. But, honestly, that's the beauty of our field right now with the people that paved the way and is showing you how to use difference different types of sutures and different types of methods. So I think everything is out there. It's just a choice of what you think you can do.

1:08:09You know? And, you know, back to the whole DSO thing for a sec, I think that you made a great point that they are forcing us to elevate our game in a lot of different ways. And there's so many DSOs out there. There's so many that you could have partnered with. What was it about Guardian? Why was Guardian the group that you decided to partner with? Because I know it's a big part of your story. I had a bunch of groups come to me through the years to unwind. And I must say Guardian was the only one that with with the CEO and CCO came two other dentists. Two other partners that sold to come meet me, give me the honor that they think they I was blown away that they would all come, but it was very nice.

1:08:48And, you know, I I came to realize through Guardian who who I might be. You know? I mean, I was building a nice career, but Guardian I also like Guardian's position, you know, on CE. You know, they have doctor Hisham Barakat who really has worked his ass off to get just the Guardian Dental Academy, and my doctors are getting better. And I just you know, Guardian was was definitely somebody I was very impressed with. You know, listen. The last couple I've been with them three years already, and, you know, it's a lot longer than anybody wants to be with a PE firm, and let's call, you know, what it is. Yeah. Right. Right. Got a lot of a lot of money nestled as we established, but that's because I thought I'd be long long gone.

1:09:28Then it's not long gone, and they challenged us to increase same store growth. Well, you can't just you can't just say we're gonna give away a milk. You know? You gotta get better, better docs, better way of closing cases. We've gotta get better, and I'm proud to say that New York is probably the top region right now because of the docs. It's because of the doctors. The doctors we are in dentistry. So I'm the dentist. You know, my my and dentist need to know, our job is not to talk money. Mhmm. Our job is to be the doctor. That's right. Back of the app, we know everything that's going on. Mhmm. I knew everything that was going on. Like an air traffic controller. That's how I always looked at it.

1:10:07You're making sure the planes are running on the trains are running on time. The planes are landing on time. I swear. I think I did a $30,000 case one day drilling on another crown, and I went, how much did you leave? You know, like, I mean, we we have a impulse on it. The beauty is when you have teams around you, you don't have to be worried. That's right. They're doing it for you. That's right. That's what you alluded to. It's the whole mechanism. It's the front. It's it's it's literally like a football team. You have a front desk that's more your offense, getting the word out. The doctor could be part of that, but he is the defense. He supports, and the special team is everything around him.

1:10:44But everything has to run to win. So, Mark, are you sure you didn't see my question list? Because, like, again, you're just leading me right into the next one. And, you know I did. No. You and I both know you've spent time in dozens, if not hundreds of practices over the years. And when you walk into a practice first time, like, what is one thing that tells you, is this practice really healthy or is it in trouble? Like, what's that thing? You know, people don't follows perfectly with what what you're just saying? Right. It's true. And, you know, how many dentists tell you, Jim, that they love what they do? A lot. No? More than that? Most don't. Wow. So, I mean, the thing I look for most in an office is people that look like they like what they're doing.

1:11:29I mean, if somebody looks like they hi. Doctor's gonna be with you in the mid. Yeah. But if they say, Doctor will with you. Have a seat. You want water? I mean, that's somebody who's who's just a different ilk. They're they're thinking that we are not buying. You know, I wanna say one other thing about Guardian. And, you know, everyone knows Guardian. But Danny, who our CEO and I have a very, very misrelation. And one day, I talked to him about a practice, and he he looked at the reputation of the doctor. Mhmm. And he said, I'm not touching. We we don't wanna touch him. It was very, very low. I mean, in the twos. And he's right. Yeah. He's right. Today, we as clinicians are not just clinicians.

1:12:06We are doctors. We are clinicians. We are business owners. And we have to make sure that when I walk in to see your office, that staff member, that team upfront is greeting everybody. They don't know if I'm a buyer or a new patient with an abscess Right. That's right. Or an abscess implants. But that tells me a lot. And, of course, it's all about cleanliness. It's all about showing you know, you don't know who I am in the back in the labs. Nobody wants a pile of crap. This is a health field. If you got Yes. All over, I'm not part of it. You know? One thing about the groups now, they're buying quality. They're paying six, seven times of EBITDA. You know? Days of 10 is gone, but you're still making a lot of money.

1:12:45And you gotta keep this as your car. You got a sports car, doctors? You love that car? You clean it every week. Clean your practice. Tell your team to make it beautiful. Have people that smile. I mean, hey. If they don't have a great smile, snap on smile is always There you go. A a very easy solution. And and, you know I what, think you hit the nail on the head. I mean, it is about the culture, and the culture comes down to the people. Culture. What's their vibe? What's their attitude? We always hired people we wanted to work with. People who were pleasant, and we're gonna be pleasant to the people who came in and trusted us with their care. And so that's super important.

1:13:20And it comes right back to in terms of thinking about what your practice is worth. You know, they're buying people, they're buying systems. So when you look at that and talking with so many dentists over the years who have, you know, gone through transition process, what is the, like, mistake that dentists make when they're thinking about practice valuation that drives you the craziest? I mean, I have a whole list of them. But what what drives you the craziest when dentists talk about practice valuation? Like, what are they not understanding? The biggest factor for me is when it's called owner arc, and that's a phrase used by private equity that's owner arc is the owner's occupation, means that owner's arc is coming out of the calculations.

1:14:02So if you're an amazing producer. Mhmm. What I didn't tell you was during that two years that I do you know, minimized my production is because it was too heavy. My EBITDA wasn't the profit wasn't strong enough. So, doctors, if you're a great producer, now's the time. If you're thinking of two to three years, even one to two, bring in an associate. Bring an associate that can produce. Bring an associate that you wanna hand it off to. Because if you don't get a deal, you just increase your practice and you could take more days off. But what you do do is you positioned yourself for less on a rock, bigger EBITDA, because the associates production is counted towards your profit. Your production is counted towards the expense it's gonna take to replace you.

1:14:44So a $2,000,000 replacement about $650,000. They're gonna remove that from your million dollar EBITDA. Now you got $300. Five times, you're getting a million 5. Don't have a great you don't have a great staff, your place is dirty, you're getting four times. You wanna get a seven times? Make everything perfect. Yes. Everything perfect. You think it's a game? It's no more games anymore. It's not half of revenue. It could be big dollars. And people that have $7,000,000 practices are still gonna make a lot of Dentistry is an amazing profession. We need to get everything from the front to the back. Like Jim Arnold says, it's an amoeba. It's an organism. We have to make sure there's no food on the desk. It's the simple things.

1:15:28Don't let people derail your biggest asset. And you know something? We hire people to run our offices. Young dentists. You meet somebody. They've been doing this for two years, and you're gonna pay them $28 an hour. What makes you think that person can run your business if you don't keep your eyes open? Yeah. Filteridge, theft, manipulation, fraud. You don't know these people. There's so much to listen for. I've been through it all. Oh. Wow. And you know what? I've been through it all from seeing envelopes in a girl's bag, everything, to being mugged. Dentistry has been amazing. But I do think that right now, it's coming back. One more rate adjustment, and the industry will be buying. Well, that's music to everyone's ears. And, you know, your podcast is so powerful.

1:16:14I mean, dentistry by numbers. I mean, it's beyond the numbers. It's just it's fantastic. And, you know, you I I think you caught my attention first earlier this year when you interviewed Gordon. I mean, you've interviewed some legends between him and Kutch and Howard Foran. I mean, these guys are just they're they're they are. They're legends. They've taught so much and and what when they speak, people listen. When you talk to people like that, like, what are some of the common traits that these legends share that younger dentists really need to hear? First of all, it's not so far from what we are thinking. Mhmm. I'm Gordon Christensen, the doctor Gordon Christensen, was the first super generalist that I I ever really spoke to. I mean, he's he's a prosthodontist by training, but he was doing implants in the seventies.

1:17:02He was doing full mouth roundhouses as a prosthodontist, surgical full mouth roundhouse. So, I mean, he did extractions, and he told me he did root canals. So I think those legends are people we can continue to learn from, but the principles that they have but the thing that gets me the most is you ever talk to these guys, the love they have Yeah. Profession. The the the the heartfelt, unbelievable passion they have for this profession watching it grow. I mean, Fran, nobody realizes Fran is just a freaking genius. Nobody realizes that he he comes up with ideas in his own mind that is just spectacular. And we're lucky to have these people. We're lucky to have a Ross Nash who stayed with cosmetics for so long.

1:17:44I mean, they're in legends. Know that, you know, that just when you meet them, they're nicer than what you thought. You know? Kim Kucha is one of those guys. You know, we got guys in New York that are those guys. But but when I come and talk to them, I, you know, I come from a very, very I'm very proud of the way I was brought up for respect and and caring about people. And when I meet those guys, it's like I'm meeting a a a reverend, a rabbi. You know? It really is. Because Yeah. Much respect for people that took us to another level. Bought us. How many of us read something that we learned from dental town? Thank you, Faran. Or the newsletter, CRA News thank you, Gordon Christensen.

1:18:21Well, all the above, all the dental economics, the dentistry they dentistry today was such a great is such a great magazine. I love them all. I tell people flip through journals just because I love it. You know? I mean, I'm sorry the journals are thinner, but, you know, I go to the bathroom less. But the fact is we have great mentors who taught us mentors to be better mentors. Amen. Right? They taught us to give back, and I am so happy that I'm in a position to give back to dentists and call me. And, you know, I love it. And the fact that a guy who worked in New York is getting a little noticed for what he's believing, it was you talk to some of these guys.

1:19:01You learn Chuck Cohen from Benco. I mean, that's a guy who sticks out because I learned a lot about the tariffs and how it's gonna affect a lot of people. You know? Yeah. These are people that you need to grasp. The Jim Arnold's. Seriously, the Jim Arnold's. I mean, he's involved in these great great trips, you know, and and and lessons and learning about the industry. I think this is an amazing time for dentistry, and I really do. Agree. I agree. You know, it's been really fun, Mark. You know, this year, I put together the Foundation Dental Alliance where, you know, I've got just a lot of industry rock stars, you know, people I've known for ten, fifteen, twenty years who are, you know, thought leaders like Ross Nash, you know, and and and a million others.

1:19:39I won't I won't name drop everybody, but it's just such a a unique thing to have a group of people who are all of like minds who are giving back, like, on a daily basis to the profession. And and I think that that's, you know, kind of an important part of what we do even with these conversations. You know, you have your podcast, dentistry beyond the numbers, and it's phenomenal. But with your podcast, like, I know, again, beyond the numbers, but outside of, like, EBITDA, like, what what's a metric or KPI or something in an office that's even more important but just doesn't get talked about enough? Because, again, you're talking to everybody. What doesn't get talked about enough along those lines? Absolutely. EBITDA is one thing.

1:20:19Mhmm. It's the one I look for is a lot is new patients or second appointments from doctors in hygiene. Meaning I mean, this is a a KPI that we all should look for. I'm sure we do. But when a guy how what's it's sort of a little different than the percentage of treatment plan accepted. Mhmm. Are they coming back? They may not accept the treatment plan, but did they make a second appointment? They saw the hygienist. We said they have three fillings and two crowns. Did they make that appointment? Are we getting a 100 new patients a month, but we're only getting 35 making second appointments? The KPI there is our ability to win p patients over. Mhmm. And the other thing is this. I mean, my feeling is, you know, if we're bonusing hygienists I don't wanna I don't wanna say anything derogatory.

1:21:06But, you know, we're doing it because we trust our hygienists. Not because they're gonna put in sixty units of Arrestin, but because they're gonna need to put in sixty units of Arrestin. And we have to watch constantly trust our our teams, but also make sure when we give them latitude, everyone's doing it for the right reasons. And this is the hardest thing. I hate to say it because I've been blessed with hygienists that I would I have, and I do continuously, thank god, let my mother and my wife get cleaned by them. But, I mean, the fact is that everywhere is different. And, you know, dentists, you know, there's nothing like looking at X rays, making sure the KPIs show that we're getting efficient treatment planning Yeah.

1:21:45Successful treatment planning so we have a second visit and that everybody's doing what the patients need. And that's the engine that runs everything. You know, without that without people's understanding what's going on and saying, yes, I mean, there there are no KPIs to follow. There's no EBITDA to grow and you know? That's a valuable asset. There's so many that I know. Of course. But I do say that that is a valuable asset. And people like ourselves that are able to run a group and look at x rays are game changers. And that's the one thing I think we are very valuable in is that we do oversee and mentor many docs. But the ability today with a cell phone and an X-ray and then the verbiage skills that we could teach, you're only teaching it one or two times.

1:22:26Yeah. And we're showing it one or two times, then they'll grasp it. So it's a great feeling. You know? You're not there in your whole life. Mark, I I'm I just have a couple more questions, but I gotta thank you for taking so much time with me. You know? I I told you that I had a lot of questions. I mean, I actually had 80 questions. I I had to winnow it down to 20. And, you know 80. Not not everybody has had such a kind of robust and well rounded career as you have. But if you were to look back at that 29 year old, Mark, you know, the new practice owner in New York City, I mean, it's I know it's kinda hard to imagine to put yourself back in that space.

1:23:01But, like, what would you tell that 29 year old version of yourself at this point? Because there's a lot of marks out there. There's a lot of guys and and women out there who are starting their career and, you know, look at what you've accomplished, and it's just dumbfounding, and it can be overwhelming. You know, with all the things I think I've done or things I tried to do, the one thing I wish I did is what I alluded to that I don't do. Mhmm. And I think that if I was a surgical dentist, if I placed implants, if I took teeth out and bone grafted, if I if I really did do bone graft to stabilize teeth or ridges, I think I would have enjoyed a little more that, and I enjoyed the heck out of it, the clinical aspect.

1:23:44I I admire people that wanna go that further distance, and I thought that's the one thing I was missing is the surgery component. But I own practices, and I had periodontists. And if the owner goes out and learns how to do implants, everybody's running. So I was I was a little bit hindered. But, I would say any young dentist out there, I say it and I say it. The only thing we're gonna grow is the ability to offer more services. We can't grow hands. We can't grow legs, and we can't grow operatories that we can work in. Even if we give it to another set of hands, we don't know if they're doing it or doing it right. But as we start off, we should be doing everything we wanna do, and everything is gonna lead to more quality and more revenue.

1:24:29And I still believe after all my years, I'm made out to be, but I am truthfully believing that the only thing that builds great practice is quality dentistry. Because you spend six or 8% or 10% of your life redoing, that's a 100% of your reviews. It totally demoralizes your team, and you need to get bigger. And kills profitability, kills patient confidence, and Kills new patients. All the obvious health care problems associated with that. Please get better at 29 to 30. Get better at 35, 36, 37 to 55, your peak earning. Right now, if you're coming out, learn, learn, learn. Mark, I love your passion. You know what mean? Really. And, again, you wouldn't be doing what you're doing today if you weren't super passionate. You know, like, beyond, like like, dentistry being a job.

1:25:19Like, at at what point, at what moment in your career did you realize it was more than just a job for you? Because some there are dentists who have practiced for ten, twenty, thirty years, and in their minds, it is just a job. But, like, what what got you past that sort of mentality? I think snap on smile. No kidding. I I love the ability I had to help people. And when I went to different countries, I think it just made me feel more than just a clinical dentist. They made me feel like I can really help people globally. I mean, I was in Liechtenstein, Italy, Sweden. I mean, doing snap ons in clinics. And and I came back to America, nobody knew who I was.

1:25:57I mean, you know, I was a dentist in New York who had a New York accent. But then I went over to Europe or even China, and, people were giving me gifts, I realized I was really helping people. And I think then I I just could not believe that a kid who you know you know, we all had struggles and, you know, I don't need to, but could could put himself, you know, into this arena because I think, it's great, and I think anyone in dentistry can do it. But you gotta keep your eye on the main thing, and the eye on the main thing is not dollars in the bank because that will come. Oh, man. Think people stopping you in the street and saying thank you.

1:26:34That's amazing. And I'm not just saying it. The money comes. The money came. Yeah. I did the right thing. The money came. Nobody wants to start with me. My wife and I said that early in my career. It's like, as long as you do the right thing, the money will follow. Do the right thing and work hard and, you know, put yourself in a position to succeed. I mean, it doesn't automatically just fall out of the sky, but doing the right thing will always be the right thing. And, you know, when you look at what you've done and, ultimately when your career is over after having done the right thing for so long, you know, when people talk about your impact Yeah. Me too. You know, whether it's, you know, your impact on the industry, you know, whether it's the inventions, the practices, the mentoring, what do you hope they say about you and kind of the person you were in the industry?

1:27:19First of all, knowing that I have a legacy coming in Mhmm. Has changed my thought process. Mhmm. I hope people say nice things about me that I was passionate, that I was honest. Mhmm. But I think mostly, I just think that, you know, we wanna leave the profession. It's cliche, Jim. Right? Right? But Mhmm. We do. We wanna leave the profession. Maybe I left it with better dentists because they listened a little bit or maybe a pro an appliance or a practice. But I seriously you know, I just wanna leave the profession and and remotely have some sort of input into it, increase into it. And I I think I haven't even reached the potential of what we can give, but it is a long road.

1:28:02And and sometimes you just say, you know, what do I do? You know? At some point, you wanna spend time with the fam and and kick back and play more golf, but this is this is really a nice part to get, you know, get recognized a little bit, starting to be recognized in my opinion. I don't even feel it that much. I know I'm out there, but I just feel like I'm focused. You know? People that are with me know that I'm very focused on the practices, and I want growth, and I want I just want great quality. And, I think that's what we have to stand you know, we have a we have an obligation as dentists, whether you're on Main Street treating Medicaid or you're on Park Avenue or 5th Avenue or Rodeo Drive.

1:28:40Wherever you are, we have an obligation Mhmm. To our patients and to us, to our profession because, you know, I'd always like to do the right thing. And like I said at the beginning, hire people that are just phenomenal. And my associate is a better dentist than I was. He does me. He does me. I I I think his treatment planning, him and I always fought. I saved teeth. Why are we saving that root? And it's a root. Definite treatment. I'm saving roots to put posts and build ups and clips and this and thinking about putting implants. It's really a cheap thing. I I love that. You know, Mark, I think that that's a a perfect sort of exclamation point on the conversation because when, you know, we talk about your career and all the cool stuff, blah blah blah, and all the mentoring, the fact that you're still open to kind of, you know, learning or just, you know, sometimes agreeing to disagree or to recognize recognize that that we're we're all all gonna treatment plan things a little bit differently.

1:29:31But, you know, even if you're not practicing anymore, you can still look at situations and say, you know what? Actually, you know, that makes sense. I'm I'm open to that. And I I think it's one of the reasons why, you know, we had this conversation. I I gotta say, I think six months ago, the first time we chatted, I was looking forward to this conversation because I knew it would be really rich and really full and have just a a million pearls and gems and things that will really benefit. Sorry? Wasn't Hubble wasn't disappointing. Oh my goodness. Are you kidding me? No. You've been fantastic. And I appreciate just your authenticity and transparency. And, you know, I said at the start, I wanted to talk about you as an inventor, as an entrepreneur, as a clinician, as a thought leader.

1:30:14And you are all of those things and more, Mark. And so I really appreciate you being here. I appreciate you spending some time with us. And I know that people are gonna get a ton of value out of this. Oh, Austin. You are phenomenal. You make me feel very comfortable. And I gotta tell you, you're you're an exceptional you're an exceptional interviewee interviewer because I feel very comfortable, and I hope people understand that I truly believe dentistry is the best profession. I think it I I found it. It did not find me. I went and found it. And I wanna leave everyone with, just a story very quickly that my father, may rest in peace, was in the real estate business, and he told me there was no room as the youngest son for me to go into the business.

1:30:54It was devastating for me. It was absolutely devastating. My other brothers were pretty much connected into the real estate business with him. And I found a profession called dentistry, and he had a friend that made a nice living. And he o p he said, yeah. That's great. And I gotta tell you, I was blessed. And to this day, I I still love him for that decision more and more. Dentistry is an amazing profession. We are all blessed to be in it in any capacity. I love going to the shows because I see people that really have done so much. Mhmm. Be a hygienist, whether it be a doctor, a thought leader, a whatever it is, I value it all. And and sometimes I don't, but I do.

1:31:30And I think we're all very lucky to have people in here to train us and to teach us to get better. And I think us clinicians, whatever age we are, we need to continuously get better and in every aspect. So this was a joy. And if I can help anyone, I hope I did. Do you do you if somebody wanted to reach out to you, what's what's the best way for Dentistry beyond the numbers, but my I'm gonna give you my personal email. It's m l I e. That's mliechtung@gmail.com. And if you wanna chat, please look at reach out to me. I'd love it, and this was amazing. This was like two buddies. Thank you, Drew. Oh, man. Absolutely. You know, next time we'll have a great glass of wine or a Absolutely.

1:32:14Whatever it You know? Looking forward to that day. But, man, gratitude. It's all in New York. What's that? I'll be there. Yeah, man. Grab a drink. I'll I'll set it up. Will absolutely do that. Looking forward to it, my friend. Well, hey. Thank you so much for listening to this episode. I think it was awesome. I might have to release it in two parts because it was so far reaching and all encompassing. And thanks again to my good friend, Mark, and we look forward to seeing you again next week on the next episode. Have a great evening. All the best. Thank you, everybody. See you. Okay.