From Aircraft Carrier to Dentistry

0:00The beliefs that we tell ourselves are the thing that actually holds us back from growth and scale. Yeah. That if that single practitioner spent time with somebody who had 20 locations, and I'm not saying they should, but but all of a sudden, watch what how fast their business would grow. Sometimes we put we put obstacles our way, and and we get advice from people that are in the exact same situation as us. So we call the friend who's struggling with the same problems we're struggling with and complain about the same struggles, and they wonder why we're not ultimately changing. You're listening to the Foundation Dental podcast, strategic conversations for dentists and leaders building long term value in dentistry.

0:35I'm doctor Jim Arnold. Let's get into today's conversation. Most dentists spend their entire career trying to make more money without ever understanding what their practice is actually worth. Today, I'm sitting down with someone who built an entire career around closing that gap. Today's guest didn't enter dentistry through dental school. He entered it through an aircraft carrier, a family practice he built from zero, and a decade of watching dentists get the wrong financial advice from people who didn't understand what they actually owned. Eric Morin is the founder and president of Tower Leadership, a firm that works with high performing dentists across the country to build leadership infrastructure, scale practices, and think about their business as a true enterprise asset.

1:13He's a Forbes speaker, a three time author, the host of the Dental Wealth podcast, and the architect of the Tower Impact Summit, where this year's stage includes Tim Tebow and Jesse Itzler, alongside some of the best operators in dentistry.

1:27What I respect most about Eric, though, is that he doesn't just talk about doing more. He talks about thinking differently, about what your practice is really worth, how it scales, and what it becomes when you stop optimizing it like a job and start building it like an enterprise. His mission is worth saying out loud, transform ambition into exponential reality. Today, we're getting into how he actually thinks, not just what he teaches. So, Eric, welcome to the foundation dental podcast. That was the best intro I've ever had on any podcast ever. You nailed that. That was so good. I love that. That was thank you for having me. I'm I'm glad to be here. Mhmm. You know, we've just spent the last half an hour just talking before this just because I mean, god, we could just talk forever.

2:07This is great stuff. I know we're both passionate about the work we do, and I I'm just so thankful to be here. So thank you for having me as a guest. I'm I'm I'm truly honored. No. It's my pleasure. I've been looking looking forward to this for a long time. Like you said, we could talk for hours, and I think we're very aligned in how we see the industry and how we can both help dentists in different ways. But, hey, man. I wanna go right back to the beginning. I wanna go back to your military career because, man, this is really interesting to me. I did a deep dive on you. I did a lot of research just to, you know, really get to know who you are, you know, outside of, you know, just dentistry. Origin story is so interesting.

2:41I mean, man, when most people at 19 are just trying to figure out what their major is, you know, you're an aircraft carrier leading a team of 30 and, you know, managing, like, a $100,000,000 in ordinance.

2:54I mean, that's, like, that's a big deal. I know you were I think it was Operation Southern Watch or something like that. But, you know, that environment and all those experiences, I mean, what did that, like, wire into you about leadership that you still rely on today? You know, it's it's interesting. I signed up. Like, the first day they would allow me to sign up for the for the military was my seventeenth birthday. And I had to have my parents' signature, and I signed up my seventeenth birthday. I always wanted to go in in the military. I always wanted to go to aircraft carrier. Like, I don't know. That was, like, the thing for me. It was, a top gun type right thing and which is not an air force movie.

3:29It's definitely a navy movie. And and then, you know, I just I always have this vision. I'm a visionary by nature, and I always have this vision for going in the military. And so the day that they let me sign up, I signed up. I was super excited. And, yeah, you know, it's interesting. I I I end up on this aircraft carrier, and I remember, like, the American flag over the top of the mast. And I remember running on the flight deck and, like, f fourteens are firing up around me. And I just remember being like, thank gosh. I'm here. And and it was really neat because I learned, you know, very young, they I I was recognized for leadership potential and the ability to lead others. And in in the military, it's interesting because, you know, you think that you see these movies where people are, like, yelling at people's faces and all those types of things, which is just not true.

4:10It's good for the movies, but it's not true. Yeah. The truth is you got a people that are away from their families, people having kids that aren't you know, while they're gone overseas. There's there's Dear John letters that people get, and I've seen that multiple times where their spouse literally leaves them while they're out deployed. There's people who are not as motivated as others. I gotta get all these people focused in one direction for a mission that is critical. And so at a very young age, I I started leading this team and and really building up ordinance, and I I I was promoted extremely fast. Probably should have taken me eight years. It took about two and a half years. And by the way, some of them just I love the military.

4:48I really did. I mean, it was really hard to get out. And then they put me in charge of I mean, I don't even remember. I mean, it's had to be hundreds of millions of dollars, if not more, of ordinance. And I would I was, you know, 19, 20 years old with a clipboard on an aircraft carrier, and I I was I was I was, you know, having helicopters come in and and and pallets come I was Was that running this whole show. It's so cool. I mean, when you were a kid and you're joked about this, is this what you saw in your mind's eye? You know what? I didn't know what it was, but I was like, I'm giving everything I got. I've got this belief in life that, you know, that you swing for everything you you can. And and it's been my mission in life, and I just swing with everything I have.

5:22And I wanna make the most out of the experience, and and I was rewarded for that. It was interesting. I was 22 years old, and I went to go get out, they offered me a quarter million dollars to stay in. And at 22 years old, it was a lot of money, especially, you know, and I was ranking so fast, but I I decided to get out, but I loved it. I loved the military. I didn't know that was gonna be so amazing and impactful, but I loved it. And I I got so much responsibility at such a young age, and I got to see what it takes to motivate people in the harshest of conditions and get them to win and to get a team to win and to live deliver under tremendous circumstances.

6:00And so Mhmm. That really did start to shape my career very early on on what it takes to ultimately build something great and and and lead people. It certainly changes your perspective forever. I mean, the that's like an environment that not many people ever ever live in or have to operate under. You know, during that time, though, I mean, was there any ever a moment where you just when you realized, man, I'm just not wired the same as everybody else? Was there was there a moment, man? Because because you are not wired the same. I I I will tell you a nerdy story. I I will tell you a nerdy story, but I knew I wasn't wired same as everybody else. So back in the day, I don't even know if they make it anymore because I think toxic and you probably would probably but I used to take my my uniform shirt shirts, and I would dunk them in liquid starch.

6:43I would dunk them in liquid starch and then iron them to where, like, flakes of, like, cancerous material would come off of them. But my shirts my shirts were so crisp. Everything was so amazing. And and, yeah, I think people recognize very quickly that that I wasn't like like the average person, and I and I mean that in a humble way. Yeah. But I but I definitely I definitely went all in, and I loved what I did. And I was I was recognized for that. And I think that the the US military is run by a bunch of 20 year olds, and most people don't know that. Isn't it It's amazing when you give people the ability to be leaders, watch what they do. It's interesting. I had a a practice one time, had a doctor pass away, and I flew out to his his in Indiana, I flew out to his family, and I'd never met them.

7:30And I just said, hey. I've got the practice. Don't worry about it. And and I drive in Indiana in these cornfields. By the way, I didn't know how much corn was in Indiana. There's a lot of corn in Indiana. There is a lot of corn. I'll let you know that. I'm driving out there in in in the middle of nowhere, and I get to this practice. And it's interesting. You know, I said I said this team down. I said, we're gonna you know, because it there was no other we the the practice was doing all the production. They were doing endo and and ortho and and, obviously, general and and everything. And I said, you know, we we're gonna draw a circle around this practice, and and nobody inside this circle is gonna get to come here because we don't wanna lose our patients.

8:04I said, we're gonna stabilize this practice. But long story short, I build out teams and leaders, and we did matter of fact, the the next few months, the practice had the strongest months that ever it had had in the history of the company. But what was neat was to see who stood up and led, and it was really neat. And I went back to the family, and I told them who was leading, and they were like, them? Here's what happens when you when you give people the opportunity to lead and especially in challenging circumstances. So it definitely shaped my ability to to lead under difficult circumstances. And then, you know, I I believe that there's a lot of people that have potential we don't we don't ever even see because they never been getting the opportunity.

8:38That's a great perspective. And I guess in my career, I I owned multi multiple practices. And, you know, as soon as I as soon as I started to recognize them, exact thing. That when you take a step back, stop micromanaging and allow them to step up instead into kinda that that role where they're forced to make decisions, people excel. I mean, not everybody, but the right people excel. And that's how you really build a team. And you learned that on an aircraft carrier, which is pretty damn cool, man. It was it was pretty cool. I I'm not gonna lie. I it was that it took me a while to get over getting out of the military, but but I made the decision because I I wanted to have a career outside the military, but but I really loved it.

9:17Yeah. So how old were you when Jessica asked if you would help help her start a dental practice? And in that first, like, ten seconds, what went through your mind? So I was naturally I had a natural talent towards consulting and towards strategy. And, you know, as an MBA, I really truly understood how to scale a practice. When, you know, we opened the doors, we were so flooded. I mean, we were six months booked out, like, the day we opened. And and we went from zero to multimillion, multi doctor practice really quick, and it was I always say it's because I was ignorant. I was like, I didn't know at that time you weren't supposed to do that. I just thought, like, I just thought this is a business and we scale it.

9:58Yeah, man. And, you know, people would come to me and they'd be like, you know and I would talk to supply reps and people that would come through the doors, and they'd, they would take notes when they're talking. It's like, this is good stuff. You know? You could charge for this. And and I just had a passion for for seeing the holes and helping people grow and scale and taking care of people and and Mhmm. And and team. And, you know, it's it's interesting. I I I always had this kind of belief that my job is to help the team be successful instead of the other way around. Yeah. And so I would always figure out, you know, what what are you trying to get accomplished? What would, you know, what would be a huge win for you here?

10:29And I really worked hard to create a thriving team. And then, you know, one one day I had a g orthodontist who said, hey. Can you help a friend of mine who's a GP? And I said, sure. I can I can help him out? And then and then the rest is history. And then, you know, now I'm thousands and thousands and thousands of practices into this thing. But but it started off with just helping a single GP office, and then and now I've, you know, now I've worked with, you know, thousands of doctors. You know, it's cool. I mean, you think about most, like, coaches, consultants, whatever, and they lead with their credentials. Yeah. It's like, oh, I've done this. I've done this. I've done this. I love how you refer to, like, your your ignorance or lack of experience in dentistry as your superpower.

11:09You know? And and that's and you it's so funny you just referenced that. It's exactly what I was gonna ask you about. What do you I mean, what do you think why do you think that so many people who, you know, have been in the in the game and doing it for a long time, why aren't they able to see things strategically the way you do? Well, I do think that some people have certain talents towards towards vision. I used to think by by by the way, years ago, thought everybody could become a visionary. And that's just not true. I mean, more some are more on the execution side, you know, those sorts of things. So so I I don't think that's necessarily true that everybody can do that, but I truly believe that limiting beliefs and the beliefs that we tell ourselves are the thing that actually holds us back from growth and scale.

11:50Yeah. That if that single practitioner spent time with somebody who had 20 locations, and I'm not saying they should, but but all of a sudden, watch what how fast their business would grow. Sometimes we put we put obstacles our way, and and we get advice from people that are in the exact same situation as us. So we call the friend who's struggling with the same problems we're struggling with and complain about the same struggles, and they wonder why we're not ultimately changing. Yeah. I always say that there's there's two things that hold people back from scaling, and that's capital and mindset. Mhmm. But the third of that, which is probably important too, is is is leadership ability. I think that you could have capital and mindset, but I find that most with mindset are great leaders.

12:29But but if you have the right mindset around people, if you have the right mindset around what you can accomplish, if you have the right mindset around growth and you have capital, scale is just a decision at that point. Mhmm. You know, when you when you look at that first experience, it was it Seven Hills? Was that the name of the practice? Okay. Was. So what what was, like, the most just kind of, like, unglamorous, like, little decision that that you made in that process that that had, like, seven figure consequences? Like, something that just just you threw out there and, man, it hit, and it made a big difference. Well, I'll tell you what the first things that I did when I went in there is I actually had said we no one's allowed to be hired until I say so outside of your assistant.

13:14K. And the reason why that was is because I wanted to I wanted to put the processes in place even though I'm not a national process oriented person. I wanted to build out it I wanted to build it out right. And I didn't want somebody coming in and telling, well, this is what we did at doctor Brown's office. I wanted to ultimately see what would make this organization thrive and be successful. So so I've picked up the phones before. Hi. You know, Eric speaking. You know? And I and by the way, gotta tell you something. My conversion rate, I still to this day, I have a out of network out of network conversion rate of 94.6%. Oh, hell yeah. So I learned very quickly. As I got to the dental industry, I was like, hey.

13:55If the out of network people come, we make a lot more money than the in network people. Oh my god. Absolutely. So I got really good, like, really good at converting on the phone and teaching people how to convert on the phone because I knew that that was a huge key to success. I was like, listen. In many cases, we get paid twice as much to get somebody out of network. And I knew once I got them in the door, they were gonna be patients. A 100%. But I had to I had to convert them. So I created language, a really great language and and and flow to patients when they called to convert them. And I understood what you were asking me that. I understood they were not asking me about my insurance. They were asking me how much it cost to come there.

14:38And once I knew that, I said, all I gotta do is solve the problem of of the cost to coming, not not whether I'm in network. People ask you if they're in network because they don't know what else to ask a dentist. And so so I I saw that. That was a that that right there was a seven figure move because Easily. The amount of out in network patients we had was just so significant. And then we started dropping insurance plans as demand you know, demand was so high, we had to open up capacity. And the only way to open up capacity was actually to drop insurance You know was pretty great. Eric, you're speaking my language. I mean, I figured out early on that, like, I I was not gonna be a dentist if I had to give away 40% of everything I did to an insurance company.

15:18I was like, man, I'd rather sell used cars, really. This is hard work. But I also recognize that that you gotta have a a level of communication and leadership and a team that's at a certain level in order to create that that value so patients know they're in the right place. Even if they're paying more out of pocket, they feel like there's nowhere else they'd rather be because they're gonna get great care. They're gonna be treated well. They're not gonna be rushed through like another number and that sort of thing. And you're speaking directly to that. That value creation on that first phone call is essential, and I think a lot of offices kinda miss that. Well, you know, the the dental and the OBGYN is the most intimate medical experiences we have.

15:56It's just a fact. And And so people will pay more money for a higher value, for a higher perceived value. Yeah. I think when it comes to insurance companies, what where the mistake comes in is people have a commoditized business, but yet their ego comes in and they say, well, I'm not taking the reduced fee, but they can't even get patients in the door today. Right. And then they drop an insurance, and now they're really hurting because their business is so commoditized. Mhmm. So if your practice if you understand the difference between a true unique experience and perceived value or cost efficiency model and even in perceived value and how that works on a business spectrum, you can understand the things that you need to do from a business strategy standpoint to increase perceived value.

16:36Mhmm. And as demand goes up, now you're like, we don't have anywhere to fill all these patients. Now you get to drop out of insurances. Yes. So so I think what people need to understand is that there's I mean, look. There's companies out there in the and then we could we could have a whole podcast on dental insurance and and how bad the reimbursements are and and because it's not even insurance. It's we'll we'll we'll get off on a tangent. We'll get off on a tangent. But because it is criminal, it really is. And and thing is that but with that said, you have to understand business strategy well enough to get around it. And if if you're and here's what I would say to anyone listening. If you're complaining about dental insurance, you are the problem.

17:12It's just true. It your business model is not correct. Like, your business model isn't no. No. No, Eric. You're wrong. It's them. Yeah. I'm not saying that they're not doing like, I I I'll be the first one to say the the reimbursement rates have not caught up in inflation and and really shouldn't be where they are today. I mean, what? When it's 1968 when insurance hit the market, a thousand dollar annual max, I mean, at that rate, the rate of inflation, everything else over the last however many years, I mean, it should be, like, $7,000 annual max. It's crazy. A thousand. It's it's insane that that so but what I will say is, though, you can still make a tremendous amount of money in a PPO type office. It's the same thing with Medicaid.

17:49People say, well, you can't make money. Yes. You can. You can make a killing in Medicaid. Mhmm. You can make a killing in fee for service. You can also mess up those models too. That's right. And and so as long as you understand where you are on the spectrum and you understand what ultimately patients are coming to you for, then you can monetize that in a smart way. So I would say it just depends on what your business model is. Now there's something called straddling, and straddling is when you your pricing is right in the middle and you just you're subservient to everybody because you have no strategy, and you're not high perceived value, but you're not cost efficient. And that's where a lot of dentists find themselves, which they, and that's why they're getting squeezed on both sides.

18:29Yeah. And that's why they're blaming the insurance companies. And I'm not like I said, I'm not taking any weight off the insurance companies. Sure. I'm just saying the business model is broken. Look. I mean, at the end of the day, there are a lot of different ways of practicing dentistry. Dentistry. And I've seen it practiced very well in a PPO model, very well in an even in a Medicaid model. But but it they are. They're just different systems. And you have to have certain efficiencies of systems, both clinically, scheduling, and everything else that you do to make up for that lower reimbursement rate, of course. And so, you know, there are dentists who love, you know, being on roller skates and seeing, you know, 60 people in a day.

19:02And and if they have efficient systems, they can do that, and they can do it profitably. But, hey, man. Like, I I played that game for a couple of years as a dentist, and that was there was nothing fun about that. I thought, gosh. If I could make more money seeing half as many patients and have deeper relationships and have that culture that attracts and retains great talent, well, by god, that's what I'm gonna do. You know? There's no for me, there was no better way to do it. But, you know, more power to anybody who has a model that they, you know, that they enjoy and allows them to give great care and, you know, to make a good living, I guess. So Yeah. I I I agree. All the models all the models can work if you know how to work the model.

19:38That's right. Exactly. So, you know, going back to that, you know, I know you've referred to that as your laboratory, you know, where you tested different things and, you know, that I'm sure that that that laid the foundation for a lot of the coaching that you've done ever since then. Give give me an example of something that that you tried back then that failed, you know, that just it you thought, hey. That's just a great idea, but it didn't work so well. And if if you had something like that, how has that impacted you, you know, like, with your clients today? You know, now you're making me dust some cobwebs off. I know. I was just saying, I don't think about that stuff very much. That was, like, twenty twenty years ago or so.

20:12I'm trying to dust the cobwebs off. I'm sure I have so many things that didn't work. I'll tell you one thing I I'll tell you one thing we tried. It didn't work. But because remember, we we had there was no there was no marketing at the time, like digital marketing and those types of things. So, you know, interestingly enough, took a map, and I put this big map on the wall. Mhmm. And I would draw circles. And, you know, and people say, well, direct mail does work. It's not true. It depends on certain factors. But, anyhow, so I would I would draw circles, and then I would test in my circle. And then if I I did really well in this in this area, I would then take my circle, and I would out draw my circle bigger.

20:45And then I would test that new market, and I would test that sample set of the new market. And then I would you know, and then that that would help me really truly understand where to concentrate my dollars and but let me tell you what. I said I there's some dollars in some areas. I'm just gonna say that that they were let's just say there wasn't a teeth in the in the tooth tooth in that whole area because I'm gonna tell you now. If we were doing dentures, we would've killed it. We weren't. I just remember I remember walking into her office and saying, like, you wanna start doing dentures? Because we don't have anyone. There's not a tooth in this whole place. So, yeah, we probably threw some dollars in some areas just testing a market that to see what would come back in the market, but that's how I tested markets.

21:22I I was testing markets, and I had this big map, and I had it down to a science. I knew how many mailers that I knew that we needed to send to fill the open supply. And and then I looked at each chair, I knew what each chair cost per hour. I'll tell you this. This is going way back. I I'll remember I'll never forget walking into her office and and saying, you know, what are our hours gonna be? And her saying, we're gonna be off on Fridays. And this completely just blew my mind. I was like, what are you talking about? And she was like, well, I'm not working on Fridays. Dentists don't work on Fridays. By way, never heard this before. I'm not and I was like, what are you what do you we have overhead. Like, we have you know?

22:00And so I was like so so we had so I knew what each chair cost me, and I'm so for so for instance, one of the things I did with, like, simple extractions when we were getting after insurance, we were getting, like, $30 or something. I don't know. It was horrible. And I just remember going, that chair for every hour cost me, and I'm making up a number, $80, and they're gonna pay me 30. I was like, so I just put I said all this in the old search. Like, I like, I knew my cost per chair. And so I I I was like, hey. We're not you know, I I was very efficient with that, but go back to Fridays. Now I'm really wiping off the cobwebs. But but she was like, I'm not working Fridays. I said, that's fine. Somebody will.

22:37We had a lot of large pediatric you know, we were in a very family areas. We had a lot of pediatric patients. So I started talking to orthodontists. I said I said, what would you give me to to to use our office? Because no one else we're in this amazing area. There's no ortho around. Yeah. I said, have Fridays open. So I started calling orthos, and I said, hey. I got Friday wide open, and and you can have the whole office. Chairs are there. You can see as many patients as you want. I started a bidding war with orthos. Brilliant. And Oh my god. That so now I got paid in Friday and Saturday without us doing a bit bit of dentistry because I was like I was like, this office will not sit and make $0. So I was like, that's not happening.

23:16And so we made money. So those days, we made pure profit because our fixed expenses were already covered Monday through Thursday. You know, that that's you know, I think it goes straight to that whole notion of not having, like, bad habits or, you know, preconceived notions about what dentistry should look like because you didn't have that experience. And and so you just went out and found solutions to problems most dentists didn't even know they had. You know, when I look at that, Eric, I mean, when you think about you you you built this practice and you scaled it very quickly. I know. At what point in that process did you realize, holy crap. Like, I'm really good at this, and, you know, I'm building a system now that I can, you know, help others duplicate or you can expand from there.

23:57Like, what was the crossover point for you when you realized it was more than just a practice? Well, I think the the part I realized that I had a very strong ability to see the holes that nobody else saw. That I was very I was naturally gifted towards strategy. But what I didn't understand it and and and I in finance, I would say I'm excellent in finance. I wouldn't say it's my unique ability, but I'm very strong in finance. And I would say I would say that what I was questioning and I couldn't understand for the life of me was why somebody was taking money out of an asset. Because I would go to these doctors, and they were like I'm like, where why are you not growing and scaling? And this was, you know, this was o nine and whatever.

24:36I I would say to these doctors, why are you not scaling? And they're like, well, I'm giving all my money to my financial adviser. And I was like, what? I was like, why are you I'm fully funding my four zero one k. I was like, why would you fully fund a four zero one k? Yeah. And and so I so just no one had told me. But I was like I was like, so you're locking up your money for the next, like, thirty years at which you gotta pay mandatory distributions at ordinary income? And then I heard the financial advisers would say things like, well, don't worry because you're gonna I remember this. Financial advisers say to doctors, you know, don't worry about the fact that you're be paying ordinary income in retirement because your tax rate's gonna be lower.

25:15Yeah. Nobody ever questioned that. I said, well, why would my tax rate be lower? Well, because you're gonna be making less income. On. What do mean making less income? Well, because your assets will be going down. Do what? So you mean if I work with you for the next thirty years where you lock up my money and I have no access to it, you can guarantee my assets and income will go down? Yeah. And as long as you die before your money runs out, you'll be great. What the hell? I was like, this is the craziest thing that we're who is talking to these people? Yeah. And it was just so absurd. And so I went back and got all my investment licenses. And I said, okay. I gotta understand this. And so I went and I got the SEC gave me the right to still consult, which is very rare, by the way, because I had to get an outside business activity.

25:57And it's because I had an MBA and because of the work I've been doing, I got permission to have an outside business activity. Typically, when you're a financial adviser, you can't do any other type of work. Interesting. And so for compliance reasons, they don't want any they they they wanna keep everything, you know, buttoned up. And so I went and got my investment licenses, and so I would still sit down with doctors. And I would I would have conversation, what are you trying to get accomplished? And as many years as I was doing that, I was like I was like, it still doesn't make sense to put money in a in a four zero one k or any of these assets versus your practice. Your practice is yielding 30% return or 22% or whatever it yields.

26:32And even if you wanna fund your four zero one k, it's fine. Fully max out the investment in the practice and then take what's left over. And I would do simple math, like show them, hey. This is an investment in a four zero one k, which okay. If had a 100,000 of net income and you put 40,000 in four zero one k, okay. The IRS sees $60. Okay. That makes your tax rate go down. Yeah. But if you had a $100,000 and you put $40 into a new operatory or or you put it into marketing, it does the same thing. Yeah. So I'm so IRS sees the same thing. And so I was like so, anyhow, it was through all that that strategy and and and and finance and math that I was like, look. If you understand the math on this thing and the economics around building a business, you can make a whole lot of money in dentistry and not even practice if you don't want to.

27:18Yeah. And so this was before DSOs. This is before private equity. I saw what they saw, and I was like, this is insane, guys. Like, don't don't you recognize what's in front of you? And so that was really the quest to figure out, like, building this company around you know, you have and and I'll take make one more statement because I don't wanna forget this thought. I believe that, you know, the goal of life is not retirement. I I, you know, I I I just don't and and I think that philosophically, I believe that people are getting when they retire like that, they get they get freedom of time Mhmm. But they don't get freedom of money. And and they don't really ultimately get to impact the way they want to.

27:54And I my I had a belief that your assets should continue to go up. Your assets should continue to go up. Your income should be continue to go up. Your wealth should be continue to go up indefinitely. And And if you do that, then you can impact more people. You can have a better life. You can change your kids' lives. You can create foundations. You can do all these amazing things. And I was like, the reason their math doesn't work is because what they call the death spiral, which is that if you take, you know, a million dollars and and ultimately, you go, well, hold on. A million dollars only gives me $4,166 a month pretax. I can't live off that. I go, I know because you're gonna have to eat more than million dollars.

28:28Is it really And then every year They're really advising you just to have enough to where you run to zero. You know? Run to zero. Pass away. You know, it's so funny, Eric, because I it's almost like you're anticipating my next question because it really was about your core thesis being the exact opposite of typical wealth advisors or advisors who give advice to them. It's exactly that. And and you that rolls right into that whole notion that, you know, 95% dentists retire with less income than what they made throughout their career. And, I mean, why hasn't the industry fixed that yet, man? Because CPAs because CPAs and and financial advisers were the ones giving the advice. CPAs went to school to focus on taxes and expenses.

29:12And in fact, if you don't believe me, all you gotta do is ask them a question about your business, and they'll give you an expense response or a tax response. They they did not go to school to actually grow businesses. I went to University of Florida, we had the Fisher School of Accounting, and we had the Warrington College of Business. We're not even in the same building. There are different disciplines, and I think that people think my accountant would have told me if I needed to make a different decision in my business, but that's not that's like asking your knee surgeon about your tooth. I mean, they're both medical, but they're completely different parts of the body. And so I think that's part of it.

29:42I think the other thing is, to be completely honest, financial advisers are motivated for you to sell your business so they can have assets under management. They get paid by you giving them money every month. Mhmm. And and then and then when you sell the business, giving them more money. And they're taking that huge year. That's right. That's how they make their money. I worked at an investment firm. They call it assets under management. Mhmm. The the challenge but I want to give them some credit, though. That's what their job is. That's that's what they get paid for. And their job is not to know your business either. So I think that the entire the entire industry was being run by accountants and financial advisers who have no education in the scalability and the and the enterprise value of a business.

30:23It's years ago, I had an oral surgeon where where these financial advisers kept kicking me out, kicking me out, kicking me out. Finally, the oral surgeon said, look. I need you both in a room. And I said, great. So I sit down in the room with these financial advisers, and I did the math on everything. The financial advisers just sat back, and they were like, alright. Do what you gotta do because they realized that if I got control, they were gonna make 10 times as much money Yeah. Because we're gonna build real wealth. And and and so anyhow, so my career took me into that place where I really understood the finances and capital investments inside of a business, and I understood them personally in how to help people create massive amounts of wealth utilizing a dental business and as an asset.

31:03Yeah. Hey. That I I love that whole mentality. Man, I I wish I had met you about fifteen years ago, you know, when I still had my practices. And and I probably still have those practices, except I probably have 30 instead of, you know, three. Exactly. But you go crazy. Oh, man. It's just you think you're slowing down. Hey, man. I'm only 56, and I don't intend to retire, man. I mean, I'm looking at the next twenty years, you know, really pursuing all of my passions and all the things in the industry that everything I've done up until this point has led to. And that means having a bigger impact. And maybe part of that will be having a a group of practices at some point. But that's excite it's a great conversation.

31:38Hey. I wanna pivot a little bit because I know that, you know, there's something coming up this fall that you're really passionate about that I'm really excited about. The Tower Impact Summit in Atlanta, November thirteenth and fourteenth. I mean, you've got a star studded lineup, man. I mean, you've got Tim Tebow and Jesse Itzler and then Brian Kaleo, Matt Ornstein, and just kind of a star studded cast of, like, some of the top operators in the in the industry. And that's, man, that's exciting. You don't get that density, that that kind of that kind of talent in one room very often. So it you know, when you look at that lineup, it's not a typical dental conference lineup. So, you know, you're curating this room very intentionally, and I love that.

32:16Like, what's when you look at that and putting together a room like that, what's the real criteria? Like, what are you trying to bring into that room, and what should dentists who attend expect to get out of it? Yeah. So what happens with growth is there's two sides two components of growth, and and one is mindset and being in the right rooms with the right people. Proximity is power. Yeah. Man, and we're in your proximity with great operators and and great ex you know, just growth rate individuals, man. Growth comes from that. And the other side is is great content. What are the people at what are the best of the best doing? Like, not, like, people who aspire to do well. I'm talking about the absolute best people because even if you can't truly operate from an execution standpoint on all of the information, imagine if you get two days hearing not only the greatest operators in dental and and talking about what the greatest people are doing.

33:12If you walk away with with just a few strategies, we do walk with a whole lot. What is that worth? Right? And and so and the other the other side of it is proximity to a message of what's a what's what's what what can you accomplish? People can accomplish 10 times more, if not more than that, than they think they can. I've been doing this for a long time. It was interesting. One of the things that I get told all the time, and I was just on a on a call right before this with with somebody who's not even in dentistry. And they were like, dude, you're you're just blowing my mind. Like, I'm growing my business through mindset. And and people started telling me, you know, Eric, you've you've allowed me to think in a way I never thought was possible.

33:49And and one of the things that I know that we can unlock and I can unlock is is the ability to show someone their potential. Sometimes someone needs to show you what you can accomplish, and you never even saw it, but it was right in front of you. And you said the same thing. I wish I met you 15 ago. The thing is is that when you're in that room, you are you are fast forwarding, and and you're you're passing up decades possibly. Yeah. By getting in a room that's this concentrated, this high end with this much information, which this concentration, what does that do in that period of time? The idea of something like this is going to multiply all your efforts exponentially. It's going to allow you to see things way differently and grow at a much faster pace.

34:36You know what? I've always felt the exact same way, Eric. I mean, 25 ago, I recognized there's some really smart people in this industry. They're doing the things I wanna do. And so since that time, that realization, I've chosen to surround myself with people like that. You know, if I was at a big event, I I had I was not shy. I just went right to the source and, you know, offered to buy them a drink, buy them dinner, whatever, because I really wanted to to understand and learn how they accomplished what they did. Because, again, you're compressing time. You're looking at that not just learning from, you know, what they're talking about up there, but you're also avoiding some of the pitfalls and some of the things that they've either experienced or seen from their time in the industry.

35:14And and that's exciting. And, like, that's what I love sharing with other dentists because, I mean, thirty years in, I've kinda seen everything, feel like I've done almost everything. And if I haven't, I know the people who are doing that or have done that. And, you know, I think that that we can really amplify that message and help, like, thousands, tens of thousands of dentists condensed time and fast track success. You know, I was having a conversation with Mark Greenstein last week who is the chief revenue officer of, Heartland. Do you like Heartland or not? I was telling someone recently, I'm like, whether you like them or not, they've amassed 2,000 practices. You you can learn from someone like that.

35:53Like, I don't care what your goals are. And I was talking to Mark, and Mark, you said I said, when did you come in Harlan? He said, we're about 700 practices. I'm like, you went from 700 to 2,000? And and you don't think you can learn from that guy? Like, I was like, man. So I started asking him questions. And, of course, this is I'm geeking out at this point. Right? I'm asking. So and some of the things he told me, I just brilliant. Brilliant. This guy's brilliant. I mean, you gotta think, like, there's a $4,000,000,000 company, and he's got private equity breathing over his shoulder. And they don't leave you in place unless you're brilliant. Right? They're not they're they'd rather replace you. Clearly. And so so with these types of people, when you get these people in a room and just sharing ideas but I will tell you as long as I've been doing this, and I've grown organizations five, six times their size in in less than twelve months.

36:41And I'm learning things from this guy that I'm like, wow. That was brilliant. So the and by the way, he's like he asked me. He's like, can I come to be on stage at the summit? Can I share some information at summit? Which, of course, I said yes. Yeah. Absolutely. So so when we get this opportunity to spend time with these types of individuals Mhmm. Sharing this type of knowledge, And then you bring a Tim Tebow, and and you you you have him talk about, you know, what it just absolutely is gonna blow your mind. The other side is it's our it's our most people don't know that this guy created a from scratch a billion dollar jet company and sold it. He sold coconut water to Coca Cola. This guy is a freaking machine, and he's dynamic on stage.

37:23He's gonna talk about what's possible, what what you can create, what you can build. And so I'm I'm you know, these are the type of people. I'm gonna have Dominique Dawes and who who ultimately is a Oh, I love that. Multiple multiple gold medal winner is gonna be on our stage talking about what she had overcome to get there. Awesome. I'm talking about the mindset that's that's that's gonna be there, what what people accomplish, how to accomplish it, the best information. Like, there's gonna be nothing like this in dentistry this year. Like, this is going to be if you're not there, so you're gonna hear about it and be like, oh god. Miss it. You like, the opportunity And what I'm investing into this room, investing into doctors because I I love this industry.

38:01I wanna see people grow. What I'm investing inside of this summit is is is gonna end up probably being close to 7 figures in investment just to have this room together for you. You know, that's that's awesome. I I mean, we don't have access to people like that in our everyday lives. So to bring them all into one place and give Dennis an opportunity for very little money to come and spend a couple of days learning from people at that level, I mean, that it is. It's unprecedented, and I'm I'm super excited about being there myself. Yeah. I know that there's kind of a special significance in this event also. You know, we I think we talked about it last night a little bit. Could you go, like, dive into that a little bit?

38:35Sure. So I I tell you my my belief is is is just my own paradigm belief. Once I've said, you know, some parts of my own philosophy is that is that we should build I believe that you should build something if you can. If you if God gave you the abilities and talents to build something amazing and you and you can, you should. Mhmm. And the reason why we should build something amazing is because of the fact that the the more we build, the more we create, the more we can impact, the more we can change lives. The truth is most people won't remember us two generations from now. No one remembers our great great grandparents. You know? Right. Right. The truth is it's it's you'll never get credit for the people you touch.

39:09But the bigger organization, the better your philosophy, the better your leadership, the more you can touch people and impact their lives. And so I believe one of the reasons why we create organizations is to do that. And I believe dentistry as a as a industry is is the most powerful industry around because it's it's it's literally an industry of givers. Mhmm. And and people who came in to give and help other and serve other people. And so I've asked Tim Tebow to come, and one of the things we're gonna do is is I wanna raise money for the Tim Tebow Foundation. And I was talking in a room with some of the industry industry's top people in the room. We were all talking about we're having this conversation about this.

39:46Tim Tebow has really got locked in right now. There's in The United States, there's literally only, like, four people to help, like, 60,000 kids that are being abused daily. I mean, the amount of under resource I mean, these kids think someone's coming. They think someone's gonna come help them. Yeah. And there's no one coming to help. Yeah. Because because the government lacks the resources. And so so the Tim Tebow Foundation is doing phenomenal work in helping these kids and putting in platforms and educating police forces and doing so many amazing things to help these kids that are are being abused or in tough situations. So what I wanna do in this what I'm going to do in this event Alright. Is not only are we going to to rip the lid off our growth potential, but we're also gonna come together to raise money for something that's absolutely powerful.

40:31It's gonna be one of the greatest pleasures is to be able to hand a check to Tim Tebow Foundation. And I want to show the world what dentistry can do, especially if you put us all in a room and what the potential is. So I'm I'm really excited about this. Man, I'm excited about it too. I mean, that should be a a passion and priority for everybody who cares about kids and has any inkling as to how enormous this problem is. I I've gotten a glimpse into that because my wife became a a CASA volunteer a few years ago, court appointed special advocates for kids who are victims of neglect and abuse. And over the past couple of years, she went from being a a volunteer to being a supervisor. And the past couple of years, she's been the the manager.

41:11She she's the executive director managing about 70 volunteers who are serving this population, and it's just shocking. Like, I didn't understand or realize, like, how prevalent this is in our society, how many kids are growing up with with no hope. And, you know, without people like Tim Tebow, without people like my wife, without people like you raising money to help with this problem, I mean, there really is no hope for so many of these kids. And a lot of it is just, like, letting people know this is a problem, and we can all play a role in in solving it. So Yeah. I I think there's a huge there's there's this huge potential. And I think that I know that we come together. If we come together in a room, you put the the the very best people in a room together and we all come together, we're gonna grow together, we're gonna laugh together, we're gonna high five together, we're gonna maybe cry a little bit together, but we're gonna have an amazing experience.

42:05And, you know, this has been such a great experience, and I've had people. I have doctors right now competing for how many people they're bringing citizen day. Yeah. Because it's life changing. And some of the people, you know, some people ask me, look. The the number of people that should be there is the doctors, associates, leaders in the practice. Mhmm. But then I have people that bring other people too because they're like, look. I need I recognize that my team will never be exposed to this type of a message. Yeah. That that people don't hear they'll never hear a message like this. So it can transform their life. So people should bring their leaders. People should bring the people that ultimately impact the practice and the patients the most.

42:36Mhmm. And and have those people in a room because this is gonna be transformative. It's gonna be life changing. And and it's also gonna give, you know, dental team's ability to come together and say, why do we exist? You know, what are we trying to accomplish? And we and maybe we do triple our growth. Maybe we do quadruple our growth over the next whatever, but why are we even doing it? What's the point? You know? And and and so we sure we wanna take care of our families and make more money and those sorts of things. I mean, I think those are but those are that those are basic needs and and and and desires. Mhmm. But but the great stuff is is is a few levels deeper than that. And so when we recognize that, we can do great work.

43:10And and that's where we wanna put in this together. I'm I'm so glad to hear that. And I'm really psyched about being a part of it and, you know, not just attending, but getting as many dentists as I can help you get there as well. You know, you you mentioned family and and kids and all that sort of thing, and I know you've got, what, an eight eight month old daughter. Is that is that about right? I I tell you what, I love I love all the Facebook posts, you know, from your wife's pregnant or your partner's pregnancy Yeah. And and some of your baby and everything else. And and I know you got a big trip to Santorini planned this summer, which is another exciting thing. How does know, how is this being a new dad again?

43:46Like, how does this, like, impact you and your perspective on kinda work life balance, you know, at this stage of the game? You know, I'm glad you asked that. I I believe that we have to push ourselves to new level of growth. And and I think that, first of all, I I have an 18 year old and a 13 year old, and now having an eight month old again, I'm I'm at least I'm very seasoned, and I understand what what what's important and not important. Man. That's right. But I would say that, you know, I'm so blessed, and I've got the most beautiful family, but the demands are high. And and the truth is that you have to create put yourself in a position to make yourself grow faster than anything else you've ever done.

44:21And the truth is by creating goals that you do not know how to get accomplished. That's the biggest challenge is people create goals that they know how to accomplish. They just wanna try to get better at what they are. But if you if you create such big goals that you don't know how to accomplish, this summit's a great example. Like, I've never pulled off a summit to this level, but I'm going to, and it's going to be freaking amazing. But I have to grow in a way to be the leader that pulls this off in the way that it's going to become. And and and and but on the same time of that, I've got my EA, by the way, is out. My CEO is out on maternity leave. My EA is out on maternity leave. I've got an eight month old at home.

44:54I'm planning a wedding. Look. All this stuff is happening. So I've got coaches as well. I I pay for coaching just like like people pay me, and I've got this coach, and he says he said told me something last week. He said, new level, new devil. I thought that was really insightful. And and, you know, what he meant by that was was that, you know, when we push ourselves to a new extreme, we have to change our habits, our our behaviors, the way we're doing things, our our priorities. And and so if you haven't changed for a long time, if you're find yourself in doing the same thing day in and day out, I would argue goals weren't big enough. Mhmm. And you haven't had to push your routine because when there's enough demands I mean, I I can't complain anything compared to a guy like Elon Musk or something.

45:34Like, how does he do it? Right? So so we think that our demand everyone's busy. I don't know anyone who's not busy. Yeah. What we have to understand is that we have to fit the most important things in that box and figure out the difference between business and productivity and and being really great at it. And I think I've I'm working really hard on that every day. I think we all try to. Oh, man. Yeah. That that's that's music to my ears. You know? And it's it's something that I gotta really be focused on as well. I think that we get routinized and you do certain things. You take on sometimes more than you can really handle effectively. And I I was like that too. I I've always set goals that are almost unattainable because I always felt like in pursuit of those goals, even if I fall a little bit short, hey.

46:13The results can be a hell of a lot better than if I just set a safe goal that I knew I could get. You know? And that that also ties into, you know, the whole philosophy, you know, Ben Hardy with, you know, 10 times easier than two times or the science of scaling and that sort of thing. And, like, if you really wanna change, you gotta break something or leave something aside and just get hyper focused on changing and being different, whether that's your mindset or the things that you leave behind to make room for what you really need to grow.

46:39And I know that's kind of what what you talk a lot about, isn't it? Yeah. I I I one of the things that has to happen for someone to grow, and I talk about exponential growth a lot and because I believe that it's what's holding us back is just our mindset of what we think we can get accomplished, and it's just true.

46:56And so I do talk about that a lot because I've been doing this for so long now Yeah. That I realized the things that are holding people back. Just like, you know, if you if you if a dentist has seen, you know, 10,000 patients or whatever the number is. Right? I mean, at some point, I tell people, I say, I could talk to somebody. Mhmm. And I've got a superpower, but it's not superpower. Right? It's just statistics where I've got a superpower in the fact that I can talk to a doctor, and within about twenty seconds of a conversation, I can tell their net worth within about a $100. Wow. And and people have tested me on it before, and then and they're like, holy crap. You know? If they even measured it. Yeah.

47:31And the reason I know that is I know what comes out of their mouths, and I know the words that they say. And I've been doing this long enough to know what what greatness says, and I know what scarcity says. Yeah. And I know the difference between somebody who's struggling. Even when they walk up to me, by the way, and go, oh my god. I'm so great, and everything's so amazing, and I'm so I'm the best dentist on the earth. I can hear that cry for help pretty quickly as well. Right. And so so, you know, I think I've been doing this long enough to know that it's it's what's happening between the ears, and as easy as we say that. Right? That's such an easy thing to say. It's between your ears. You know? But the elementary version is, you know, or scarcity versus abundance.

48:08Those are such those can be one zero one elementary concepts, but they can also be very advanced concepts. It depends on how you wanna look at it. There's a difference between saying abundance of opportunity and realizing that that it's easy to make another $500 this year. It is. Is it easy to make another million dollars this year? And they'll go, what? I'm like, yeah. There's not anyone listening to this that couldn't make another million dollars this year. And it's like it's like when people hear that, they go, that's impossible. It's like, no. It's not impossible. You can make a million dollars. You would just have to ultimately as I was just saying, you would have to ultimately probably change your way of doing things.

48:38You would have to change what you're focused on. You'd probably change your daily activities. Yeah. Everything would have to change, but you could do it. And so what people are it's much easier to stay in the rut of doing things the same way day after day, week after week, and opening for a different result. Human nature, I think. And, you know, you you really you do a a really good job of drawing a hard line between linear and exponential growth. You know, for a for a typical dentist out there, you know, what is I mean, what's the distinction look like on a random Tuesday afternoon at the office? For me? No. No. For them. Like, dentist. You know? A dentist in their practice, you know, just kinda doing it the same thing every day.

49:14You know? I mean, it like, changing that mentality from linear to exponential growth. Like So let me what do they need that, like? So so let me let me give you an example of Mhmm. Of of a person that I'm working with. And I said to him he said, I wanna double in the next twelve months. And I said, what is your top line revenue? He said, $12,000,000. So I said, okay. I said, how much of that do you produce? He said, about 1,700,000. It's a pretty good chunk of that. Yeah. And I said, are you are you wanna do whatever it takes to double in the next twelve months? And he goes, I'm gonna do anything it takes. I said, great. I need you to remove yourself out of the dental chair in two weeks. Yep. And he was like, he he what?

49:48And I said I said I I said, I need I need you to be out of the dental chair in two weeks. But here's the thing. So it's we're recording this on May 20. That conversation happened, I think, December 6. So he he had he got out the dental chair on whether it was January 1 when he was officially out of the dental chair. Wow. It is May 6. By the way, we've removed him out the dental chair. We never lost a dollar in revenue. We actually increased revenue to the highest points had ever been. So we replaced him within thirty days, his revenue within thirty days, which he thought was impossible to do. Mhmm. We've got an entire team around him. And with we are five months into the year, and we are on pace to take the practice from 12,000,000 to 26,000,000 by the end of the year.

50:28Got You know, and and, Eric, that that lines up right with what I've always thought. You know, when I decided to take myself out of the chair or to dial things back significantly, not be the primary provider, what it meant was I could work on the practice instead of working in the practice. And and that really was one of the things that changed everything for me. I mean, first, you go from being an engineer to being a manager to then, like, being a true leader. And it's hard to be a true leader when you're in the trenches, you know, doing all the heavy lifting as a clinical dentist every day. And this is a case in point. A guy who's a big producer, he's got a big practice, he has a goal to double.

51:04And and what did he do? He removed himself from the chair, and he's gonna more than double. I mean, that's that's really great work. It's helping him understand that now now, obviously, there's key moves that had to be made inside the practice from an execution standpoint to make that happen. But couldn't have done it if he was seeing patients thirty hours a week. He could have done it. Yeah. Or if he had said, well, let me do it over the next four years, and I'll take myself back an hour here and an hour there. I said, it's not gonna work. Like Yeah. You're gonna you're not gonna be focused on what I need you to focus on. So by getting people focused in the right direction so so not not look. Not everybody wants to grow that aggressively, and I get that.

51:38Sure. But it but it speaks to the potentiality of of what what is possible if you're looking at this the right way and say that I want something different from my life. Mhmm. We got a wealth, and and I and I tell people this. I'm I say say to people, you know, something no one ever explains to somebody is that if you have a $5,000,000 dental practice, which is a very successful dental practice Mhmm. So I use this number because it kinda gives you you can you know, it's linear, so you can cut it in half of what you want to know. But if it's a $5,000,000 dental practice and you're gonna you got a 20 Yeah. That's a million dollars. Right? So or let's just say net income in a million dollars. So Mhmm. So your net income is a million dollars.

52:11Let's just say that. So you're making a million dollars a year. So for you to replace that income, it takes $20,000,000 in an investment account at 5%. Yeah. And so most people have never done that math, and they go because they think, well, if I have my $5,000,000 dental practice, yeah, if you sell it, you're gonna pay a brokerage fee. You have to pay off your debt. You gotta pay taxes, and maybe you're left with $3,000,000. Well, that's only a $150,000 a year in income passively at 5%. Why do I use 5%? Because in retirement, we have what's called a preservation of capital strategy where we don't wanna lose our money. So we're investing in large cap stocks and and fixed income. So probably a reasonable amount in retirement.

52:46Yeah. What people don't realize is that, okay. Well, I would need then to get my business. If I wanna have a million dollars of your income, I would need 20,000,000 net. Yes. Right. You would need 20,000,000 net, which means you probably need to sell for something like 30,000,000. Yep. So what ends up happening is people don't understand is that is that you're sitting back, oh, well, I mean, at $5,000,000, I'll be good to go. I'm like, no. $5,000,000. You're you're you're taking a giant pay cut because you're gonna make go from making a million dollars a year to $1.50 a year. Now I hope you don't say to me, well, I also have Social Security. But but but so so so what happens is is realizing is, like, if I don't grow this thing exponentially Mhmm.

53:22Then, yeah, I just hope I die before my money runs out. And I'll never create a a massive wealth or impact in this world. And so you have to see it as the longer you now it does you might love clinical dentistry, and then I'm not taking away from that. But the longer I stay from skating not from as long as I hold myself back, the longer I hold myself from holding back from scaling Mhmm. The less likely it is that I'm going to hit the potential of my life. And I believe that there is, you know, self actualization and there's self fulfillment. Self fulfillment is this idea that I wanna live the greatest life possible, move my friends and travel and my family. And then self actualization is the top potential of what you can accomplish in this life.

54:00And the reason why people don't usually hit the actualization is because they have to believe that they have to give up fulfillment to do so. That's not true. If you understand how to leverage talent team's ability, you can ultimately have more fulfillment and more actualization at the same time, and just people don't know how to accomplish that. Wow. That's a really powerful point. Another point that you talk about or something you talk about is that ceiling of conformity. You know, what what is the ceiling of conformity, and and what does that look like inside a practice when a dentist is bumping up against it and doesn't even realize it? Well, I, you know, I think the the biggest thing we we all have to realize is is that our businesses have ceilings and floors.

54:40Mhmm. And that most people don't realize even even every position has a ceiling. Right? Each person has a ceiling. And and and their their their ability to ultimately continue to rise, and then we have a floor, which is what we tolerate in our business. And what most dentists don't realize is and then there's this this thing in business called proverbial valley of death. And and dentistry is a this unique thing because we had these office managers. We paid $40,000 a year for their our entire careers. Right. And then now someone's saying go go pay somebody a 130,000. And our minds can't get wrapped around the idea of going from 40 to one thirty. And so what ends up happening in the proverbial valley of death is is that we start to slide up, but we keep going backwards.

55:22So we keep going backwards because there's a ceiling on our team and their abilities and their insights. And so the doctor is still the bottleneck because the bot doctor has to still do everything, make sure the finances are taken care of, and make sure the marketing is taken care of, make sure the patients are taken care of, make because the team isn't capable of doing this without the doc. Right. Because they're hiring people that ceiling is too low. Mhmm. And so what ends up happening, for instance, an operations person should know a hell of a lot more than you about running the operations of a practice. If you can coach the operations person, you're not gonna be able to scale with them for very long.

55:55Mhmm. If you could coach the marketing person, you're not gonna go to scale with them for very long. Now maybe you get up to $23,000,000 in revenue, but at some point, you're gonna hit the ceiling. And and the better the team you have, the the quicker you can grow as long as you don't hire people that are below your floor. And you don't bring a lot of people that slow you down Yeah. Because the time you take dealing with those people is gonna stop you from actually focusing on the where the practice is going. We've all hired the wrong people. So the floor and ceiling are two things that doctors need to measure. So I'll look at a team member, for instance, and I'll say, I'm making up a number. This doctor could this this team member could take the practice from 5,000,000 to 11,000,000, but around 11,000,000, unless they really do something, some growth, they're gonna hit a cap.

56:45Yeah. And then that person might have to exit the organization. And by the way, that person we they just grew an organization from five to 11. They can go get another cure doing some amazing things, helping other organizations. But the problem is that they can't we feel sometimes from a loyalty standpoint, we gotta keep this person around for the next forty years. But the truth is is that person might have hit a ceiling. And the best thing we can do for them is allow them to go be successful because that person will realize, and I just had this happen. They'll realize they're failing, and they'll realize they can't grow, and they realize they've hit a ceiling. And so the best thing we can do is allow that person to go be really successful somewhere else so that we can continue to grow.

57:15Now we need to go hire somebody who's capable of getting us from 11 to 20. Yeah. And and so so the ceiling and the floor matter both in in what we so what we tolerate and what we expect are huge limiting factors to a business' ability to scale. You know, Eric, I read somewhere that tower turns away about 60% of applicants who wanna come work with you. And, you know, that's a that sounds pretty amazing. I mean, to be able to be that selective. When you look at that, like, what's the real criteria? What do you what do you think when when you're thinking about whether someone qualifies or not, like, what what do you think about that whether they're not they're just not ready yet? What what factors come in play?

57:52You know, it's interesting. We have tower clients that are doing a little over $1,000,000 in revenue, and we have clients that are doing over $300,000,000 in revenue. Mhmm. So so it's interesting. So you you go, you know, well, it it's gotta be my size. Well, that's actually not true because we have different divisions. And so it's first of all, we gauge people on three factors, which is humble, hungry, and smart. And when I say smart, mean emotionally smart, which is Patrick Lencioni. If someone's not humble, we don't work with them. Mhmm. They don't grow up, because they think they have all the answers. And I and, you know, early in my career, someone said, stay away from people who aren't humble. They get you sued and killed.

58:29And and and and so we don't work with people who aren't humble. Mhmm. And the highest network of people I know in my life ask the most questions is that it's just a correlation. I want people that are hungry. They're they wanna rip the damn walls off this life, who wanna create great things and do great things and and build an impact, and and then emotionally smart people, people who can coalesce a team. Yeah. The truth is you have to be a leader over time. That if you can't lead people there's this, you know, idea that you, you know, you can be a build a gigantic organization and be a complete asshole, and it's just not true. It's not true. You the truth is as you as you scale higher, you're gonna have to to get to build a team of higher caliber people.

59:07Mhmm. The higher caliber people have choices. Yeah. So if you're a jerk, they're not gonna work with you. They're just not going to. And you can have that team when you're really, you know, at a million 2 or, you know, $800. But when you start to get trying to scale and build a team, you'll lose half your team. And if you're working with somebody who loses half their team overnight because they're they treat people poorly, that's never gonna that person's never gonna scale. So there's some of those requirements we look for and and and mindset's a huge piece of this is is that can you focus on the right things when we give them to you, or are you gonna keep focusing on the things that are weighing you down?

59:41So so there's a gauge in a conversation that we're having with somebody where we really wanna understand what their potential is because I have no desire to take someone's money and not serve them. Yeah. Our job we're a purpose driven organization. If I can't get results, I'd rather you, you know, us part ways and you find someone who maybe can get you results in that regard because I really wanna work with the right people doing the right things for the right reasons. Well, I think I think that solves a lot of problems. I mean, number one, I mean, you ensure that you work with people who you enjoy, and you ensure that you work with people who are likely to be successful. And the ones who say, oh, I've already done that.

1:00:14Oh, I I I that's not gonna work. That kind of mentality, I mean, we come across it all the time. I mean, I can't tell you how many dentists I've tried to help, and that's the answer to everything no matter what I say. And, man, it's like beating your head against the wall. And if you're in a position where you don't have to do that, I mean, work with people who are really motivated and really have the right mentality and mindset to to do that and are going to actually take take some of that advice and run with it. Well, yeah. I mean, you gotta think of I mean and and I like I said, I wouldn't say, I mean, it's all humility. Mhmm. But I've grown some of the fastest dental practices in this entire country.

1:00:46Yeah. And and if you're sitting at 2,200,000 and you tell me that you know everything and and you know more than me, then good luck. I mean, I like, because if you don't think I can help you grow in scale, well, then then why are you do why are we why are we having this conversation? Because you're gonna be in the same place in five years. Yeah. Because you think you've got all the answers. And the truth is is that is that you have to list I mean, I can't stress this enough. It goes right back to building. Fastest, they just ask questions, humble, hungry, and smart. They're like, what about that? What if I did this? What about I mean, I remember sitting in a room with this gentleman who and he who who went from 10 to 50,000,000 in eleven months that I worked with.

1:01:22And I gotta tell you, this guy asked more questions than anyone I've ever worked with in my entire career. He just couldn't he would call me on Saturday and Sunday and in the evenings, and he would just ask questions. And he was already independently wealthy. Mhmm. But he would oh, he would ask me just just so many questions. He just couldn't get enough. Isn't it interesting that he went from 10 to 50 in twelve months? Yeah. Go go figure. Go figure. That's a I you know? And and I think that's a a great rule in life outside of dentistry too. You know, the most successful people are those people who wanna ask a lot of questions and try to surround themselves with people who yeah. And don't have to be smarter than them, but have, you know, more experience or more know how or have proven, you know, that through a track record.

1:02:05You know, and and dentistry's got a lot of high performers. You know? A lot of guys who like, and women who, like, do a lot. But when you look at these high performers, what's the thing that they most likely do kind of consistently or commonly that that destroys long term value in a practice without even realizing it? The thing that destroys there's two things that destroy long term enterprise value more than anything else that you can possibly do. One is have strategic diffusion, which means that you start chasing shiny diamonds and you you're not very clear on where you stand from a pricing model, from a business model. For instance, I had a group come to me recently, and they said they said, you know, we're gonna start an ortho business.

1:02:41And I was like, what? And they were like, we're gonna add ortho. And I was like, by the way, ortho is a great business. But I was like I was like, do you guys have the team that can handle ortho? They're like, no. Do you understand the AR in ortho? No. Do you do and I was like, you're gonna it's gonna you're gonna spend your greatest scaling GP, and now you're gonna get into ortho. It's gonna slow everything you're trying to do down. It's going to completely wreck. You're gonna end up unwinding it. It's a waste of probably the next three years. Yeah. I just had somebody, you know, pull out a full arch because they were like, as great of a business model it is, we recognize even with the investment in full arch that it's actually and they were putting a lot of money in full arch.

1:03:14I think they made over half $1,000,000 investment in a full arch, and they were like, it's slowing us down. I know. That's strategic diffusion. We start to get we start instead of being very focused, we start to move off of our efforts. So strategic diffusion is something no one talk no most people don't talk about, but it's one of the biggest killers of enterprise value is not having a clear strategy and not staying focused on it. And people wanna know that if they were ever gonna buy you. They wanna know what your strategy is and how you've executed and how you stayed consistent and how it works over and over again and those types of things. Okay. So that's important. The second one is is is the ability to keep and coalesce a team.

1:03:48Mhmm. If you can't keep and coalesce a team, there's it destroys enterprise value more than anything. If if 40% of your team is turning over twelve months, that means I've gotta fix that. Mhmm. That means that means there are a lot of problems inside this business. And and so I'm looking at your turnover, and I'm saying if you're turning over to that many people, I gotta replace all the leadership. I gotta replace a lot of the systems probably. I probably have no continuity of care. It's a complete disaster, and I've gotta fix all of this. And I'm not gonna give you money that you think I'm gonna give you Mhmm. Because you're barely holding this thing together with toothpicks. Mhmm. And so I would say that those are the two biggest things that I see destroy enterprise value.

1:04:27K. Well, that that's really good. I've never heard the term strategic diffusion, but I understand it. Yeah. I mean, it's I I think it it happens, you know, outside of the dental office too. You know? You just take on too many different things, and you think that adding this shiny object is going to help you grow faster when, in reality, it's just gonna take away from the your core, you know, your core business or or where your core focus should be. You know? Yeah. I know you've written several books, but what what's the one? It's beyond beyond the big payday. Beyond the big payday. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, I think yeah. I haven't read it yet, but, like, I'm dying to. You know, as soon as I I did my research, I was sharing some of that with my wife.

1:05:03She's like, you need to read this book. But I I know in there, you talk about the $10,000,000 mistake. And, you know, how is somebody making the $10,000,000 mistake with without even knowing it? People do not understand the true potential, and they they do not understand the economic value of a dental practice versus the market value. Yeah. And so in the $10,000,000 mistake and the big mistake you know, basically, what I talk about is all the different $10,000,000 mistakes. In fact, I talk about, like, 10 of them in there. And I and I talk about the mistakes that are being made every day that are causing they're costing you tens of millions of dollars. And so before someone sells their dental practice, you know, I encourage them to read that book and to say, hey.

1:05:41Listen. Am I making some mistakes? Or if I'm even thinking about selling in the next five to ten years, hey. What do I need to be looking at now so it doesn't cost me wealth and generational wealth? And and I and it sounds like a very sophisticated term. It's true. It can cost you generational wealth. And and so the so the the mistakes that are being made are catastrophic. And I you know, I'm an idealist and an optimist. There's probably I was like, I must put a stop to this. And so trying to educate the masses on what you're not being told because the broker has no incentive to tell you. The financial adviser doesn't isn't educated. The CPA isn't educated. And so people are not explaining this to you. The bank probably wants the deal.

1:06:20Like, you don't have a lot of people on your side that are really truly in your corner who are advocating for you to keep it. Or if you wanna sell it, that's fine. But then Yeah. Understanding how to maximize the value. The truth is the broker would love to have you maximize the value, but a lot of brokerages are pushing you to sell as quick as possible because that's how they get paid. And so Yep. So the whole the whole world is incentivized for you to sell your practice quick and fast at the at, honestly, the the quickest dollar that they possibly can. You know, Eric, I I've seen that so much in my career, and it's why with a with a business partner, I've started Foundation Dental Transitions this past fall.

1:06:56Brian was actually sitting on the opposite side of the table from me when I sold my group of practices eleven years ago. And he was really good at what he did. You know? And he got a really, really good deal for the DSO, you know, for the private equity guys who are still my friends eleven years later because I'm smart enough to recognize now the game and the things that I didn't know then that, you know, I left, you know, tens of millions on the table.

1:07:17No question about it. But I have a lot of respect for them because they did their jobs. They did their jobs really well. But Brian changed size. He's now on the dentist side of the table because he saw that for twenty years. You know, he he did over three or 400 transactions, you know, where he was really repping the the buyer to get the best deal they possibly could. And he saw all these dentists going into he says they're going to a gunfight with a feather. You know? I know their practices inside and out way more than they do, and I know all the leverage, and I know all the the things that, you know, like, decrease value to them, but increase value after the purchase. And so we're hell bent on making sure that dentists who do do have an interest in selling maximize whatever value they can.

1:07:57And it's never a race to the finish line. It's a it's just an opportunity to hold their hand as we increase their enterprise value to the extent that we can. And when the time comes to to you know, they're taking a howitzer to the table. They're not taking a feather because, you know, I've been through 60 transactions and he's been through hundreds and anyway, yeah, it it's it's something that's rife in the industry, and that's why we're so passionate about turning the tide to the extent we can. Yeah. And and look. There's great financial advisers out there. There's great broker broker people brokers out there. There's great there's great everyone. So I'm not knocking anybody. I want everyone to understand is that you have to find people that are educated and and have your best interest in mind.

1:08:34That's right. But when you understand that and you actually do it well, it's like, you know, you can maximize the value of what's coming out of your business if you decide to sell it. And most of will sell it at some point. So what do I need to know now to not make a mistake? Because maybe the person advising me doesn't know what's best, and I really do need to not take a a a feather to the fight. And I need to know what way in advance, what what maximizes my value. And so I think those things are huge, and I think that that all of this comes stuff comes full circle around scaling, around mindset, around exponential growth, around team, around all of this, and then around ultimately, you know, creating an infinite life, which is a life that because you've impacted all these people that you know?

1:09:15And and, look, you can even make that concrete and say, well, I could I if make enough wells, I can create a foundation, and my kids can work for the foundation, and they could give away money for the rest of their lives. And there's all kinds of stuff we could do. It's all about wealth. So so there's just huge opportunities in front of people that they'll just have the right conversations with the right people. And that's why sometimes when people think around the idea of consulting or something like that, they think, you know, this is about getting my schedule optimized and, oh, man. You're dead. Yeah. You don't even know your like like, that's just so, like yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I'm sure that needs to optimize.

1:09:42But you wanna grow by 10%, you know, 20%, I mean, yeah, some of those things will be helpful. But if you really wanna scale to the extent that, you know, you talk about and and and your clients actually do, you know, the the home runs that your clients hit all the time, it's just a completely different mentality, and that's not gonna move the needle. So, you know, when you when you look at an industry that's consolidating quickly I mean, I don't even know, like, DSOs where they have 28%, 30% of the market at this point. I know one of your missions is keep to keep dental practices in the hands of dentists. Do you ever feel like you're you're, like, fighting a tide that can't be turned? Yeah. I do. I you know, it's interesting.

1:10:20We're seeing we're seeing consolidation slow. It might be back up again, but here's what I would say. I have I'm at the place where I'm trying to protect this industry as much as possible. Mhmm. What I will say and and concede on to some degree, because I think I I've changed my mindset in some ways, and what I would concede over over this is I want dentistry to be in the best hands. And so sometimes in some situations, that's independent dentists who's also running a day to day practice. And there are some great organizations. And I wanna get I wanna say that. And not everyone believes that, but the truth is there are great dental groups owned by dental, that by dentists Mhmm. That are doing great, that never wanna sell to private equity, that wanna create great things.

1:10:58Yeah. There are, you know, dental service organizations that love that are taking care of people and doing great thing and bringing the leadership, and that might be a home for you whether it's temporary or full or permanently. Yeah. And then there's independent dentists who wanna run a private shop and just have their their team and love on them and and create something beautiful and amazing. I think all can win. I think I think that that there's a place for everyone in dentistry as long as the patients are being served and as long as the teams are being served. And I think what's most important is that we protect this industry. We make sure that I think dentistry is one of the most beautiful industries.

1:11:28And what I wanna do is align myself with the people who are protecting it and doing the best thing for doctors, for their teams, for their patients, and for the future of the industry. And I'm willing to do what work with the people and whoever that is to who ultimately has the same mission in mind as I do. I love that. I mean, it's so true. It's like you say if if you've seen a DSO, you've seen one DSO. You know, there are hundreds of them, if not thousands out there, and they're all they all have different different mindsets, different leadership, different systems and processes. And I agree. Some of them do things really well, and some of them maybe not so well. But it's nice to have optionality.

1:12:04But at the same but at the same time, we've got you know, someone I I read a post the other day and somebody was saying, you know, well, we we can't have larger groups because then dental care goes down. I was like, do you know how many independent dentists that I have come across in my career that I would not send my worst enemies to? I mean, I mean, let's face it, guys. I mean, look. I mean, look. It's not always just because you're in a bet that you're a great clinician either. I mean, I think that there's great clinicians, period. Yeah. And the assumption that if you're with a larger group, whether it's independently owned or not, that now you're a bad dentist and you don't care about patients, I think is a is an outdated Agree.

1:12:36View. There was probably a time where some of that was there was a little bit of a grab and maybe some of that was a little bit more true than it is today, and I'll I'll admit that. Mhmm. But I but I but I don't but I think it's it's I'll go as far as saying it's ignorant to say that that dentists are doing poor quality of care because of this because they're in organizations that are growing and scaling. I I I I can't say that's true. I agree. You know, I have this conversation with dentists all the time, you know, about culture. You know? And a lot of times, I think when if somebody does sell to a DSO and they gotta stay on three to five years or whatever, they love to blame the parent organization, the DSO, for changes in culture and that sort of thing.

1:13:11And and, yeah, there can be things that are annoying, you know, economies of scale or things that they might come in and change. But at the end of the day, the culture is all about the people in the office. You know, no matter whether you're independent or whether it is or whatever, you as a leader on the ground, boots on the ground, are the ones who make the decision about what things are gonna look like day to day. You know? Are you going to, you know, just sit around and complain about the things you don't like? Or are you gonna treat one another, you know, like the same family they were last year when you were independent and, you know, just keep treating patients the same way? It's a decision.

1:13:40We I agree with you a 100%. I will say this. The future of dentistry has changed, and it leans towards the person who understands how to run a business and who understands differentiation. Mhmm. And if you understand how to run a business and you understand differentiation, doesn't matter who you are, you'll be fine. Yeah. Yeah. Need to understand those things. If you don't differentiate yourself, then you do just become a commodity. Know? And patients look at it like a dentist is a dentist is a dentist. Who's the cheapest? That's who I'm gonna go to. And when that's the mentality of the patient, I mean, that's not necessarily the patient that you want. You know? I mean, if you wanna differentiate yourself and have more discerning patients, we're gonna come in and kinda like you with your clients.

1:14:18You know? I want patients who are gonna come in and believe in what I have to say. They're gonna follow, you know, what what we propose to them and recommend as their best guest best game plan, you know, we're gonna be more fulfilled on a daily basis, and they're gonna have better oral health at the end of the day too, much like you with the dentist that you work and work with and serve.

1:14:36When you look at an organization, though, and that's just struggling and, you know, trying to figure out, like, what what do we really need to do to move the needle for an organization, like, what's the first thing you look at? I think that that is the challenge with answering that question is the same question as saying if someone ultimately has an issue with their mouth, what's the first thing you look at? And say, well, the first thing I do is open up the mouth. And so so and I say that because it it's a loaded question because every organization's different. Yeah. I think that we we as an organization do a 10,000 foot view and a deep dive into what's really happening inside the business. And I would say that, you know, if you you know, and and that every every situation is different.

1:15:14And I think what solves problems in one organization doesn't necessarily solve them for another. Mhmm. And I think that's the problem with cookie cutter approaches is is they're just that. And I think that when it comes to to business, business is complex. If it was simple, we could just put it in chat GBT. We never have to worry about anything else again. Businesses are as complex as there are people. And so I think that you have to look at so many different complexities, and as it scales, there's more complexities. Mhmm. And so I think that what I would say is every organization's different and needs to be treated as such. Mhmm. And we need to understand what are the what what I would say is the very first thing, though, what what we need to look at is once we understand why we're doing what we're doing and where we're going and those sorts of things, is that what are the main constraints and then what strain needs to be elevated to the top of that list.

1:15:57So once we figure out what those constraints are, we understand constraint theory to a degree. We understand what needs to be elevated. We can solve that problem that usually gets things rolling pretty quick. Boy, and that just brings us full circle back to to kind of mindset. And if you have the right mindset, there's an awful lot of things you can accomplish. But if you got limiting beliefs that hold you back, then you better figure that out if you wanna grow and scale and kinda be the best version of yourself for sure. So, you know, anybody listening to this right now, Eric, like, if they're thinking about going to the Tower Impact Summit, you know, November thirteenth and fourteenth in Atlanta, you know, we both know that it's it's not just the speakers, and it's not just the content.

1:16:36It's the room itself. It's like, the the energy, the vibe, and you know, for the dentist who do show up, you know, what what again, what should they expect? What's gonna happen, you know, in those two days, and and how are they gonna walk out of there, you know, feeling, like, hopeful and, like, there's real change? There's gonna be there's there's strategy, there's tactics, and then there's mindset in this room, which means ultimately speaking. Look. You're gonna the energy in this room, the people you're gonna hang around the this entire event is gonna blow your mind. It's going to change your mindset. I'm telling you, you wanna jump in mindset, be in the room. Watch what happens. You wanna lift the lid off your beliefs, be in this room.

1:17:09But then you're also gonna get strategy, and you're gonna get tactics. Yeah. And and by the way, I've got some wealth people in the room who are gonna talk about wealth, which is, by way, I haven't told anyone I'm gonna do that. I have a wealth segment with people that are going to I'm not letting you out the bag yet, but it's gonna blow your mind if you wanna be talking. So it's gonna be every component. How to turn this into massive wealth too? And so how do we lift the lid off this thing? How do we create massive wealth, massive impact, different mindset, tactical steps, strategy? It's got it all. I you know, you gotta be there. Dude, dude. If I don't wanna fix it six months. I I don't want to miss six months.

1:17:41Let's do it next month. You know what? You gotta ask yourself. If you're not willing to invest if you know you know, I don't whether you know, if you're not willing to invest a few thousand bucks into your own growth and self education, then, you know, what are you gonna invest in? And and and what is your future worth? It's the best investment you'll ever make, you know, investing in yourself, investing in your business. You know? Why take it out and invest in something else when you can invest in that thing that's going to give you the highest return on on that investment? So, yeah, you've given a lot of people a framework for, you know, maximizing their businesses or, you know, their organizations.

1:18:13But, like, who gave you that framework, like, for what you could be? Because you've you've come a long way since you were that 19 year old on an aircraft carrier. I mean, when I look at what what you've accomplished at a relatively young age, you know, for yourself and for your family, but what you've helped others accomplish, it's extraordinary. Like, who who taught you? Like, who gave you that that vision? You know, I some of it's innate, but the other part is I I remember I always say my father left an an accidental legacy and the fact that my dad always wanna retire. Mhmm. My dad worked at Disney his entire life. And my mom was this overachiever, KPMG consultant, and my dad was was this yeah. He just won a retirement.

1:18:52And and I never understood that philosophy. I I just never got it. I was like, why would you not wanna just rip that world off this life that limits to its potential? I just and I always say it's an accidental legacy because I I just remember thinking, I don't understand that. Mhmm. Like, you get one go at this damn thing. As far as we know and so, like, live it to its fullest. We've been given so many gifts and opportunities and abilities, and I have leaned into I I I ask questions. I've leaned into every single person that that would that I could, every book that I could, every resource that I could. I I was around every, you know, every you know, my own self education and what I put into to coaches and to mentors, and and I just I I love this stuff, and and I try to absorb every little bit I possibly can.

1:19:35And then I try to take that information and impact other people's lives and and give it as a gift back to other people. So I think when we live our lives like that, man, good comes from it. Wealth is not something you have to chase. Wealth comes. It's I think people think that success is something you have to chase. It just comes. You just I think you just have to know what you need to focus on. And I think people are focusing so much on grabbing another dollar that they're they're missing it. Man, Eric, that's that's really powerful. And I I I really appreciate you. You know, just a little time that I as I've gotten to know you. I mean, you're incredibly generous, you know, with your with your words, with your time, and you've been very generous to me.

1:20:09And I really appreciate you spending this time with us today because, I mean, honestly, this is exactly the kind of conversation that this show exists for. These are the conversations that I wanna have with people like you who are real leaders in the industry. So, you know, thanks for your honesty, for thinking out loud with us at a level that most people never get to hear. So for everybody who's listening right now, like, if something in this conversation really landed, if it resonated, then, you know, don't move past it. You know? Like, actually sit with it. And, you know, it might change how you see the whole industry and where your place in it is. So, Eric, where's the best people to go to learn more about what you're building with the tower leadership?

1:20:46You know, first of I would say be at the tower summit. I think if you're not at the impact summit, you're making a huge mistake. It's I intentionally put it in place where it doesn't, you know, bump up against a lot of different other dental stuff and Mhmm. And it doesn't bump against your July 4 holiday. So I would say, first of all, be there. Second of all, I would say go to towerleadership.com. There'll be a drop down. There's our team. We have an amazing team of servants, and they'll help you, and they'll have a conversation with you. Our team is not here to sell you. I'd say, as as we said, we we turn away more people than we take on. Yeah. So our team is not gonna try to convince you to sign up a tower today.

1:21:18You know, have a conversation. Tell us what what's going on. Be vulnerable with us. Be honest with us. Awesome. And then we'll be honest with you and vulnerable with you. Hey, man. That's that's awesome. So, you know, Dennis, anybody listening, to our great conversation today, if you wanna be in the room with Eric and me and some of the most forward thinking leaders in the in the industry, you know, go to towerimpactsummit.com and register November thirteenth and fourteenth in Atlanta and use promo code alliance 30 for 30% off.

1:21:47So that's a big deal. That's a a really cool thing that that Eric's allowed me to do for my my listeners and anybody who is part of the Foundation Dental Alliance. But if this conversation gave you something to think about, send it to a dentist who needs to hear it. That's how this whole community grows, and that's how Eric and and I can both have a bigger impact on on, you know, hopefully, your happiness, your success, and the impact that you make on the industry. So I'm doctor Jim Arnold. Thanks again, Eric Moran. We'll see you again next time. Thanks for having me. Thanks, This has been the Foundation Dental podcast. If this conversation was valuable, share it with a colleague who's building something meaningful.

1:22:25For more leadership resources, visit foundationdentalalliance.com.